An open complaint to the list server admins

[UNKNOWNFILE]

Dear List Server Network,

I have recently started to look into allocating bandwidth into starting my own list server network and I was flatly refused when I asked for the list server program itself.

After doing a bit of thinking, I have concluded that you are just trying to conserve the nature of JJ2 by only having one network where people fall under the supreign rule of people who are supposed to be gods. This is not the case for other networks, however.

If we put this North American list servers that are networked to the big uber super list server of DEATH against the number of IRC servers in the EFNet network, we will get some big results:

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3932/lists10rf.th.png (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lists10rf.png)

The A represents Mono's server, the house represents my house.

Now, imagine that the list servers are an IRC network that's newly started. Suppose you start to get flooded with requests to link to a new server, supposedly to spread the word in that particular area. You can either allow them to do so, or flatly refuse them.

Judging by the look on your face, of COURSE you'll say no. This is because of the following reasons:

You are overly concerned about the safety of your network, which is a bit too careful
You think that the bandwidth is distributed evenly enough
You might be xenophobes


Well, maybe some people want your code for the server you're using, probably to start their own network or help fix up exploits. And you'll still flatly refuse them, backed by the list of stuff above. This is exactly the case with the current list server network you are running.

Now, let's compare developmental standards. Nebula is working on a new list program (closed), whereas Whats-His-Face is working on an IRCd (open). Suppose both of our friends find an exploit in their software. Since Nebula's list server's a closed-source program, he or a friend of his will need to work for hours or even days to close the loophole. However, since Whats-His-Face has his code open-source, a large group of programmers gather in a chat room somewhere and end up fixing the program in a few hours. So, at the end of the day, WHF has fixed his loophole faster with the help of contributors, whereas our friend Nebula could still be working on it.

Lastly, users and administrators. I will be using #jj2 for the IRC example. Suppose a hazardous user comes into the channel/list server and starts to do some activity (eg, spam, hacking, etc). Both the ops and admins will boot the user, but this is not always the case. #jj2's operators will often boot people on a whim. In this case, you are better.

Overall, my comparison proves that the system presented by a typical IRC server is more friendly than the system that you have presented. I'm sorry to say this, but the truth hurts.

Thankfully not yours,
Peter S. Conway

[Link]

I believe in open-source software, and I also feel that the list server software should fall into that category. However, Nebula has every right not to release it and especially not to give it to you. Sabotaging the existing network and (angering) just about every JJ2 player is no way to make a good impression, Dr. J.

And there are of course flaws with your reasoning. Compare the number of EFNet users to the number of active JJ2 players. We could get by with just one server, and certainly don't need more than two.

Nevertheless, I think Nebula should release his software, especially if he is no longer actively developing it. I know that others agree with this. I also know that you would be able to positively contribute, as long as you keep your emotions out of it and try to work as part of a team.

[Monolith]

I would be all for expanding the list server network, but unfortunately the gains to doing so are nowhere near as significant to the downsides.

Finding availability has usually been the biggest challange for coming up with new list servers. The servers don't require much in terms of performance, but they do require the ability to remain on for long periods of times.

As Link mentioned, there's a rather large difference is your comparison between the list server network, and the EFnet IRC network -- that being an issue of scale. EFnet has over 70000 users connected to it. The list server network on the other hand hasn't had more than 10 for quite a while. So while the list server network may have been designed to be a distributed network like IRC, it certainly doesn't require it. One list server could easily handle a lot more activity than what it gets now.

There is also the problem that while the list server network may have been designed to work as a distributed system, it wasn't actually implemented all that well. Problems can start to occur when there are more than two list servers in the network. We discovered this when contrabandent, nimrod-online, and madskills were all online. Also, JJ2's handling of multiple servers doesn't work too well when one is down. And we're also familiar with the annoyances of list server patches whenever the list of list servers changes.

I agree with the point about projects being open source being possibly quicker to develop and bug fix. I would like it if Nebula allowed more people to work on his clone of the list server, but instead he hasn't worked on it much more even by himself, and so we've had to discontinue use of his server.

I'm afraid I fail to see what point you are trying to make with your comparison of the list server network and #jj2.

I think you're right that IRC networks are better than the list server network, but I'm afraid we don't have as many options to improve the list server network.

[Speeza]

The game is nearly dead.
There is not much people playing on it anyway,so there is no need for 2.

[UNKNOWNFILE]

ZOMG! IT'S PART TWO! EXCLAMATION MARKS!

Dear power abuser(s),

I recently took the time to review your list server rules.
Allow me to comment on them.

"Keep the service working as well as possible."

Does the presence of N*mrod seem to be hindering you? IMO, it is.

"If something by a user needs to be changed, change it in the most reasonably minimal way."

You mean replacing stuff like "Crashers are ghey!!!11one" with "Server Number 1"? Hooray for censorship. I only thought it existed here and in the United States.

"If a server is listed, but cannot be joined, then remove it from the list after a reasonable amount of time (like a few minutes)."

Nebula's list server does that, thus rendering that task useless.

"Don't change any of the server names, unless it conflicts with the other rules."

See above note on censorship.

"Keep the servers within legal bounds."

Do explain why I got a link to Jazz3D, then.

"Obviously, the primary function of the JJ2 list server is to list the current JJ2 game servers so that they can be retrieved by JJ2 clients. ... For example, if someone was performing a DoS attack on the server, and the attack was such that others couldn't use the server, then it would be right to ban the attacker."

You mean the list server? I have not once seen the list servers go down, except for maintenance and connection cycling.

I'm going to skip the thing on Dead Servers because it is possibly the only sane rule you have.

"In the case that a game server name somehow interferes with the service, it should be altered only so far as it needs to in order for it to no longer be an interference. For example, a game server name contains some special characters that mess up the list."

Nebula has also taken care of that. YAY.

The blank server name thing is fine. I thought that the dead server thing was sane as well. Hopefully this will be the last time.

"It is necessary for the service to remain within legal bounds because otherwise it could be shut down by legal action."

See above the notice about the link to JJ3D. Also, that server just happened to be Overlord's. PWNED!!

"The list server service was made to work as a network of list servers. All servers must maintain the same set of rules/protocols/whatever, because otherwise the network will fall apart."

As of now, there are two networks.

The "original" Jazz network - jazz.contrabandent.com, formerly jazz.logicware.com. Since nobody uses it, there is little need to go there.

The "sadly unofficial" Jazz network - split between jazz.n*mrod-online.com and jazz.madskills.org. Power is abused in some of the most rediculous ways possible.

Which one do you think follows the rules? Both of them. Which one do you think enforces them to the point where it's rediculous? The unofficial one.

"Any attempts to damage or degrade the service can be considered abuse. Any user actions that require repeated administrator intervention can also be considered a form of abuse. If an administrator finds it necessary, they can block a user from the service such that it prevents their abuse."

Does that involve crashing servers? Because I see in no way that it disrupts your service. The only service it interferes with is your client's, who are providing the servers that the people will be playing on. You are in no way related to what goes on with the servers, just the lists. Which reminds me, if I do start a new list server network, then I'll just tell users to use PeerGuardian or whatever to prevent crashes on the services provided by them.

"There are two types of administrators: local and global."

Global administrator: Nimrod
Local administrators: Monolith and Nimrod

"The purpose of a local administrator is to make sure that their server continues to work with the rest of the list server network. Local admins should not be allowed to change anything that affects the entire network. The only thing I can think of right now that"

Hooray for incomplete sentences. They are so good that

"The purpose of a global admin is to maintain the list server network as a whole. A global admin should be able to log into any of the list servers on the network and perform any global operation. Global operations may involve modifying the current list of game servers, modifying the current list of servers among the list server network, or changing any other setting that would affect the entire network."

I smell power abuse.

"You'll notice there's nothing there about personal attack servers. Nothing besides server names should remain as unaltered as possible. The reason for this is because personal attacks have nothing to do with the functionality of the service."

See above comment about the renaming of servers. OMG U LIEZ!!!!11

In conclusion, I have thus proven that you are both trying to enforce rules that do not apply to your list servers whatsoever. Let me get this into your heads in case you've denied it already: Crashes on servers do not affect the list service that you are providing. You do NOT own the servers that are on the lists.

By the way, please send the Epic/Nebula list server program to certifiedunknownfile@gmail.com, in addition to $900 Canadian dollars needed for a stable computer, $50/month for my internet service, $40 for a new router, and $100 for electrical bills. I'll be more than happy to contribute to the community by hosting a new server network that just about anyone can join in on.*

Thank you for your time.

Proving you wrong,
Peter S. Conway.

* Actually, the only needed equipment is the computer and router.

[EvilMike]

Dear Peter S. Conway,

I think nimrod and monolith do a good enough job. Please dont be so angry at them :(. You need to calm down.

Sincerely,
Michael C. Gagno

[Violet CLM]

"Keep the service working as well as possible."

Does the presence of N*mrod seem to be hindering you? IMO, it is.
We all have a wonderful list of people who we think are stupid. Nimrod is probably on a few lists. So are you. So is *picks someone at random* Dino. One man's opinion is not enough to "prove" something is wrong.
"If something by a user needs to be changed, change it in the most reasonably minimal way."

You mean replacing stuff like "Crashers are ghey!!!11one" with "Server Number 1"? Hooray for censorship. I only thought it existed here and in the United States.
Changes like "Crashers (are awesome)" still shows what the original intent was - "Server Number 1" removes the offense.
"If a server is listed, but cannot be joined, then remove it from the list after a reasonable amount of time (like a few minutes)."

Nebula's list server does that, thus rendering that task useless.
So, um, a list server shouldn't be able to do something another list server does? I guess it is rather rude of Nimrod's list server to list servers, isn't it?
"Keep the servers within legal bounds."

Do explain why I got a link to Jazz3D, then.
...you must be joking. Please be joking. How can anyone possibly prevent links from being given in servers? Do you honestly expect Nimrod to monitor every line of text in every server and block them before other people can see them?

"Obviously, the primary function of the JJ2 list server is to list the current JJ2 game servers so that they can be retrieved by JJ2 clients. ... For example, if someone was performing a DoS attack on the server, and the attack was such that others couldn't use the server, then it would be right to ban the attacker."

You mean the list server? I have not once seen the list servers go down, except for maintenance and connection cycling.
I think this refers to servers, which I believe DoS attacks can be performed upon. In any case, would you complain against a rule stating "Wakeman is not allowed to come to Nimrod's house and murder him with a blunt knife" simply because it has never happened?
The blank server name thing is fine. I thought that the dead server thing was sane as well. Hopefully this will be the last time.
The last time that... what? That you like a rule? Surely it is telling that you WANT the rules to be bad.
"Any attempts to damage or degrade the service can be considered abuse. Any user actions that require repeated administrator intervention can also be considered a form of abuse. If an administrator finds it necessary, they can block a user from the service such that it prevents their abuse."

Does that involve crashing servers? Because I see in no way that it disrupts your service. The only service it interferes with is your client's, who are providing the servers that the people will be playing on. You are in no way related to what goes on with the servers, just the lists. Which reminds me, if I do start a new list server network, then I'll just tell users to use PeerGuardian or whatever to prevent crashes on the services provided by them.
You are ignoring the word "degrade", which renders your argument pointless. Of course they are related to what goes on witb the servers - didn't you notice that stuff earlier about illegal activity?
"The purpose of a global admin is to maintain the list server network as a whole. A global admin should be able to log into any of the list servers on the network and perform any global operation. Global operations may involve modifying the current list of game servers, modifying the current list of servers among the list server network, or changing any other setting that would affect the entire network."

I smell power abuse.
This is a groundless complaint. You are complaining that someone is able to control something they run. The CAPABILITY of power abuse is different from the ACTION.
"You'll notice there's nothing there about personal attack servers. Nothing besides server names should remain as unaltered as possible. The reason for this is because personal attacks have nothing to do with the functionality of the service."

See above comment about the renaming of servers. OMG U LIEZ!!!!11
It's, um, extremely poorly worded, but notice this part:
"Nothing besides server names should remain as unaltered as possible."
As the grammatical reading of that sentence makes no sense at all, it's my guess that "nothing" is supposed to be "everything", or some such, meaning that they change nothing but server names.
In conclusion, I have thus proven that you are both trying to enforce rules that do not apply to your list servers whatsoever.
You attribute the list of rules you are quoting to be "list server rules". Surely the list server rules apply to the list server?
Let me get this into your heads in case you've denied it already: Crashes on servers do not affect the list service that you are providing. You do NOT own the servers that are on the lists.
Degrade, degrade, degrade. And I won't bother with your request for money.

[Odin]

Dear Peter S. Conway,

I think nimrod and monolith do a good enough job. Please dont be so angry at them :(. You need to calm down.

Sincerely,
Michael C. Gagno

ahahahahah your middle name starts with a c

[Tik]

UnknownFile, it's a silly bunny rabbit game on the internet. Find something worthwhile to complain about because of your teenage anti-authority complex, or invest time doing something directly useful for the community like you kind of were before.

The servers crashed are on Mono and Nim's network, and it is detrimental to the network if none of the clients they provide that service for can function because of attacks. It is a community-wide problem, and it is only natural that in their positions they would want to lend a helping hand.

I don't think you understand what real power abuse can entail. If they were closing servers because someone they have a grudge against is in one, renaming players themselves, only allowing their friends to host servers, randomly deciding not to allow anyone to play, or a myriad of other things, maybe you would have a case. It seems right now you are the only person who remotely cares about this, and moreover I can't imagine playing on server run by an individual such as you, because you'd likely abuse that power more than either Mono or Nim would.

[Blackraptor]

UnknownFile, it's a silly bunny rabbit game on the internet. Find something worthwhile to complain about because of your teenage anti-authority complex, or invest time doing something directly useful for the community like you kind of were before.

The servers crashed are on Mono and Nim's network, and it is detrimental to the network if none of the clients they provide that service for can function because of attacks. It is a community-wide problem, and it is only natural that in their positions they would want to lend a helping hand.

I don't think you understand what real power abuse can entail. If they were closing servers because someone they have a grudge against is in one, renaming players themselves, only allowing their friends to host servers, randomly deciding not to allow anyone to play, or a myriad of other things, maybe you would have a case. It seems right now you are the only person who remotely cares about this, and moreover I can't imagine playing on server run by an individual such as you, because you'd likely abuse that power more than either Mono or Nim would.


I was gonna make a semi long post until I read this one and agreed with it.

[Monolith]

"Keep the service working as well as possible."

Does the presence of N*mrod seem to be hindering you? IMO, it is.
You'll have to explain further how you believe the presence of Nimrod is hindering the service.


"If something by a user needs to be changed, change it in the most reasonably minimal way."

You mean replacing stuff like "Crashers are ghey!!!11one" with "Server Number 1"? Hooray for censorship. I only thought it existed here and in the United States.
"Don't change any of the server names, unless it conflicts with the other rules."

See above note on censorship.
I still stand by these rules.


"If a server is listed, but cannot be joined, then remove it from the list after a reasonable amount of time (like a few minutes)."

Nebula's list server does that, thus rendering that task useless.
"In the case that a game server name somehow interferes with the service, it should be altered only so far as it needs to in order for it to no longer be an interference. For example, a game server name contains some special characters that mess up the list."

Nebula has also taken care of that. YAY.
Nebula's list server was made to comply with these rule.


"Keep the servers within legal bounds."

Do explain why I got a link to Jazz3D, then.
"It is necessary for the service to remain within legal bounds because otherwise it could be shut down by legal action."

See above the notice about the link to JJ3D. Also, that server just happened to be Overlord's. PWNED!!
An illegal link shouldn't be something you got from the list servers. Although if it was a case where the URL was given as the name of a server, then that would be an appropriate case for the list server admins to rename that server, because the server name could be considered violating this rule.


"The list server service was made to work as a network of list servers. All servers must maintain the same set of rules/protocols/whatever, because otherwise the network will fall apart."

As of now, there are two networks.

The "original" Jazz network - jazz.contrabandent.com, formerly jazz.logicware.com. Since nobody uses it, there is little need to go there.

The "sadly unofficial" Jazz network - split between jazz.n*mrod-online.com and jazz.madskills.org. Power is abused in some of the most rediculous ways possible.

Which one do you think follows the rules? Both of them. Which one do you think enforces them to the point where it's rediculous? The unofficial one.
The list server jazz.contrabandent.com was removed from the network because it's flakey service was disrupting the service of the network.


"Any attempts to damage or degrade the service can be considered abuse. Any user actions that require repeated administrator intervention can also be considered a form of abuse. If an administrator finds it necessary, they can block a user from the service such that it prevents their abuse."

Does that involve crashing servers? Because I see in no way that it disrupts your service. The only service it interferes with is your client's, who are providing the servers that the people will be playing on. You are in no way related to what goes on with the servers, just the lists. Which reminds me, if I do start a new list server network, then I'll just tell users to use PeerGuardian or whatever to prevent crashes on the services provided by them.
It is true that this does not account for crashing game servers. This draft of the rules was written before I concented to the first network banning of a user for mass disruption of games listed on the list servers.


"There are two types of administrators: local and global."

Global administrator: Nimrod
Local administrators: Monolith and Nimrod
If the local and global administrator functions were actually implemented, then both Nimrod and I would start out as both global and local admins. But as it is now, the features don't yet exist for these administrative levels to be put into action. And I don't know why there's an incomplete sentence in the part about local admins.


In conclusion, I have thus proven that you are both trying to enforce rules that do not apply to your list servers whatsoever. Let me get this into your heads in case you've denied it already: Crashes on servers do not affect the list service that you are providing. You do NOT own the servers that are on the lists.
I agree with you that what happens in the game servers does not effect the list server network. However, since the incident with Orbitz, I have come to realize that if it happens that the list server network can aid the community in thwarting consistant attackers, then it would be better for the list server network to take rather than do nothing at all.

[Trafton]

I think it goes without saying that the history of giving programs to just one person (Megawarp, Ultrawarp, several other things ending with "Warp") is, well, not so hot.

Besides, if I recall correctly, haven't you been warned for abusing harassment programs?

Your personal vendettas are not relevant to the functioning of this list server and for Christsakes stop saying "ZOMG."

[R3ptile]

mike is the new king of funny posts

[UNKNOWNFILE]

Your personal vendettas are not relevant to the functioning of this list server and for Christsakes stop saying "ZOMG."

Sorry, I don't listen to people who think they are in control of other people's lives.

UnknownFile, it's a silly bunny rabbit game on the internet. Find something worthwhile to complain about because of your teenage anti-authority complex, or invest time doing something directly useful for the community like you kind of were before.

omg personal attack

The servers crashed are on Mono and Nim's network

you mean nim's

and it is detrimental to the network if none of the clients they provide that service for can function because of attacks. It is a community-wide problem, and it is only natural that in their positions they would want to lend a helping hand.

Boo hoo. Go kick people for random and useless reasons in #jj2.

I don't think you understand what real power abuse can entail. If they were closing servers because someone they have a grudge against is in one, renaming players themselves, only allowing their friends to host servers, randomly deciding not to allow anyone to play, or a myriad of other things, maybe you would have a case. It seems right now you are the only person who remotely cares about this, and moreover I can't imagine playing on server run by an individual such as you, because you'd likely abuse that power more than either Mono or Nim would.

Aha, ahahahaha hahaha hahahahaha ahhahaha you're hilarious. You should join the nearest comedy club or something.

[Stijn]

How about actually replying to Spaztic's post instead of making a bad attempt at mocking it so people won't notice he's right and you're wrong?

[Sonyk]

Boo hoo. Go kick people for random and useless reasons in #jj2.
Um... Spaztic isn't really known for kicking people with nonsense reasons in #jj2. That's iCeD's job and at least when he does it it's funny. Just because you hold a nonsensical grudge against #jj2 and it's administration doesn't mean you can ignore any and all logic.

[Ninja]

Dear UF,

I swear to god, if you come to the next EC meeting, which I will be attending I will beat the crap out of you. Stop whining about power abuse. If you respect the admins, don't get all jealous that you can't have the listservers, and don't get all, "DUDEZZZZ WE GOTZZA REBELLLL!!! F THA SYSTAM!!!!!!!" then people won't have a problem with you. As Spaztic said, it's a freaking rabbit game. Nimrod kindly hosts the listservers so a bunch of ungrateful pre-teens can whine about it?

I am so (-) at your ignorance, UF. If you're ever at a JJ2 meeting and acting like this, I will beat your (-) down. I will destroy you. Don't even think I can't. I'm probably stronger than 95% of the community ever since I started playing football and wrestling. I had to lift weights because those sports require physical strength, and I can make out at 210 pounds now. I could crush you like a bug. You will bow down to my almighty wrath, mortal.

edit: hahaha, I meant max out. oh man, i'm keeping that typo because it's hilarious.

[Ninja]

I know it seems dumb to say on the internet, but it just feels so good knowing I could kick your anus.

[n00b]

I am so (-) at your ignorance, UF. If you're ever at a JJ2 meeting and acting like this, I will beat your (-) down. I will destroy you. Don't even think I can't. I'm probably stronger than 95% of the community ever since I started playing football and wrestling. I had to lift weights because those sports require physical strength, and I can make out at 210 pounds now. I could crush you like a bug. You will bow down to my almighty wrath, mortal.

While I don't doubt you could kick UF's anus, as a Ju-jitsu student I'd like to point out the knowledge and skill of fighting is just as important as (if not more than) strength when it comes to anus kicking.

[Ninja]

Yes, I know that. I don't doubt you could kick my anus if you're an experienced ju-jitsu student. =P I'm just really good at wrestling and can pin people about 50 pounds heavier than me. I doubt UF knows how to fight, though.

[n00b]

Ah, well that settles that.

[MaGoo]

Yo Ninja, let's arm wrestle at the next meeting. ;D

[Ninja]

I'm an awesome arm wrestler, by the way. =P
*hugs magoo* long time no see.

[UNKNOWNFILE]

Thank you Ninja for taking this thread off-topic.

[EvilMike]

Ninja: Stop being an internet tough guy, this thread is for unknownfile to post well thought-out complaints about the list server admins. Go find another thread to assert your manliness in. Or better yet, another forum.

Unknownfile: Please keep posting, I enjoy reading this thread.

[Odin]

UNKNOWNFILE is to this thread as Gene Ray is to timecube.com.

[Trafton]

Sorry, I don't listen to people who think they are in control of other people's lives.

Start listening to people who think they are in control of other people's lives.

[UNKNOWNFILE]

You are taking this thread off topic Sir. and you cannot beat the power of ZOMG.

[Odin]

You are taking this thread off topic Sir. and you cannot beat the power of ZOMG.

Dude, shut up. Seriously. No one finds you funny.

[UNKNOWNFILE]

Alright, since nobody wants to stay on topic...

I SUMMON THE UNHOLY POWERS OF LINK TO CLOSE AND DELETE THIS THREAD

[Violet CLM]

If you would like this thread to be on topic, I suggest replying to the points raised by myself, Spaztic, or Monolith. Also, I (and possibly others) would prefer it if that reply contained logical agreements or disagreements to the points contained within the text being replied to, preferably based on objective truths.

[Link]

If you would like this thread to be on topic, I suggest replying to the points raised by myself, Spaztic, or Monolith. Also, I (and possibly others) would prefer it if that reply contained logical agreements or disagreements to the points contained within the text being replied to, preferably based on objective truths.

I agree. There's no reason to close this, though I implore people to stay on topic.

[Puffie40]

UF, I don't understand why you are so ticked off at Nimrod. He is responsible for the list servers and has to maintain them for a service for other people.

Have you been a moderator for a forum? How about a group? I am an assistant manager for a MSN group, and I value my responsibility (So much, in fact, that when I got promoted, I sent the manager a email stating that I would not change any settings unless I have his permission)

It takes a responsible person to manage systems. Do you complain about school lab computers being remotely accessed by the system administrator? They don't bother you, as long as you follow the rules. Same goes with all higher powers. Do you complain to a cop because he gives you a speeding ticket?

So, that makes me wonder about you, UF. You just admitted you were working with ThaSpaz and Orbitz to crash servers. Something like that makes your reputation very low (IMO, the same level as them)

So, if you do set up a list server, would we use it? I would be more afraid of you abusing power than I would be with Nimrod or Monolith. I think you would allow crashing and cheating. We are here for GAMES, not having our fun ruined by some crasher.

[UNKNOWNFILE]

UF, I don't understand why you are so ticked off at Nimrod. He is responsible for the list servers and has to maintain them for a service for other people.

I just don't think that the list servers should be run in the UK. They should be run in the Netherlands, where there are a lot more people.

Have you been a moderator for a forum? How about a group? I am an assistant manager for a MSN group, and I value my responsibility (So much, in fact, that when I got promoted, I sent the manager a email stating that I would not change any settings unless I have his permission)

Not exactly.

It takes a responsible person to manage systems. Do you complain about school lab computers being remotely accessed by the system administrator? They don't bother you, as long as you follow the rules. Same goes with all higher powers. Do you complain to a cop because he gives you a speeding ticket?

No.

So, that makes me wonder about you, UF. You just admitted you were working with ThaSpaz and Orbitz to crash servers. Something like that makes your reputation very low (IMO, the same level as them)

I only set up the bouncer to let them on. Other than that, not really.

So, if you do set up a list server, would we use it? I would be more afraid of you abusing power than I would be with Nimrod or Monolith. I think you would allow crashing and cheating. We are here for GAMES, not having our fun ruined by some crasher.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find you get what you need.

[Sonyk]

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find you get what you need.
What is that supposed to mean? You're disproving your own point.

You can't always get what you want...
YOU can't rid of Nimrod or set up your own list server.

...but if you try sometimes, you might find you get what you need.
But YOU did try. And if you were observant enough, you got what you need. We have list server network run by people who are capable enough to run it, and while it's not perfect, nothing is. That's all you need.

[NovaStar]

I was wondering whether I could run an Australian listserver as Battle Server sometimes comes up on JazzTool as Distance: Too far.

[UNKNOWNFILE]

Are you prepared for huge electrical bills from leaving your computer on 24/7/365?

[Radium]

I just don't think that the list servers should be run in the UK. They should be run in the Netherlands, where there are a lot more people.Why? All the listserver really does is give people the IP of the game they are joining. And the Netherlands and UK are fairly close. And I don't think having more people near the listserver will make it work better.

Are you prepared for huge electrical bills from leaving your computer on 24/7/365?It's not that much, really.

[NovaStar]

Well, that renders UF's post useless.
Also if there were any New Zealand players they would benefit as well since it'd be in the Southern part of Aussie.

[UNKNOWNFILE]

Why? All the listserver really does is give people the IP of the game they are joining. And the Netherlands and UK are fairly close. And I don't think having more people near the listserver will make it work better..

I know that. But consider the fact that the people who play JJ2 are mostly from the Netherlands, and that a Dutch list server would be relatively fast to access for the Dutch population.

[Sonyk]

I was wondering whether I could run an Australian listserver as Battle Server sometimes comes up on JazzTool as Distance: Too far.
That wouldn't help you at all. the list servers just mirror the IP address for the servers being hosted. The ping is the result of your computer physically being too far away from the servers being hosted. Hosting your own list server would benefit you naught.

[NovaStar]

Yet it would benefit the many unknown Australian players a lot because we'd all get pinging status's.

Oh, and I should randomly plop on a plane, go to U.S.A or somewhere close, set up my computer and play at 12 years of age?
Yeah, really intelligent.

[UNKNOWNFILE]

Yet it would benefit the many unknown Australian players a lot because we'd all get pinging status's.

Here is the syntax of what the list server actually sends:

(size) (?) (IP in hex, reversed) 27 (Server name)

As you can see, the list servers do NOT send the actual game data to the clients. Nor do they have control over the games that are listed. Case dismissed.

[Nimrod]

I know that. But consider the fact that the people who play JJ2 are mostly from the Netherlands, and that a Dutch list server would be relatively fast to access for the Dutch population.

If you really think the 1ms or 2ms benefit Dutch users will get from a list server hosted in the Netherlands is worth campaigning for, go ahead.

But seems you want to argue about the location, I might as well explain why the UK is a good choice for placement. From what I read years ago (so yeah, it may be different now) 2/3 of the traffic from Europe to America passes via England. To ensure a good speed for both American and European clients, the best place for a list server would either be the United Kingdom or the East Coast of the United States.

But now we're working on deployment a network (the only thing holding us back is a proper patching method which is being worked on) and even with the new network, it still works out nicely:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/snookieboy/ListWorld.jpg

(For those of you not in one of the circles, you just need to pick the nearest to you which offers you the fastest list access)

Now, I honestly see no major benefit of moving to a Dedicated Server in the Netherlands. I have no intention of shutting down operation in the UK just because you feel the 1ms/2ms improvement for Dutch users is vitally important for list operation.

This is also hopefully the last post I have to make in here, as everyone has pointed out to you Unknownfile, your not capable of arguing because as soon as someone makes a good point at you, you just ignore them and try to find a error to laugh at.

[NovaStar]

AHEM!
*cough cough*
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/3326/pengscreenie7xu.png

[Sonyk]

To be quite honest, I don't think anybody much cares.

JJ2 is an unsupported game. The fact that the world is not covered in the list server network is none of our concern, considering you're the only person to have spoken out about it.

Consider this. There are approximately 8 billion people on the face of the Earth. Remember that you are 1 of these people. Then remember how many zeroes are in a billion. That's a lot more than just 1.


Plus, Nimrod added a caption beneath that picture. Try reading the post next time.

[NovaStar]

And there's actually a few not-JCF registered Australians so it's kinda unfair on us, as we get a slow connection. ;P

[Sonyk]

Thank you for proving his point, UF.

(For the record UF's post contained an attack which completely proved Nimrod's previous point)

[NovaStar]

He wasn't drunk. ;P
Post rendered useless.

[Radium]

ShadowRabbit has a point. Your listservers cover a lot of the US and Europe, but you're neglecting Australia and the empty half of Russia.

[Violet CLM]

ShadowRabbit has a point. Your listservers cover a lot of the US and Europe, but you're neglecting Australia and the empty half of Russia.
"Asia"?
And, uh, that's the west coast, not the east coast.

[Sonyk]

(For those of you not in one of the circles, you just need to pick the nearest to you which offers you the fastest list access)
<!>

[Puffie40]

UF, I don't understand why you are so ticked off at Nimrod. He is responsible for the list servers and has to maintain them for a service for other people.


I just don't think that the list servers should be run in the UK. They should be run in the Netherlands, where there are a lot more people.

Server bandwidth depends more on the distance of the host. I live in the east kootenays, and I know a server is nearby in Calgary Ab. when it is less than 60ms. Nimrod has a very good point with the location. You are looking for COVERAGE, not RESPONCE.



It takes a responsible person to manage systems. Do you complain about school lab computers being remotely accessed by the system administrator? They don't bother you, as long as you follow the rules. Same goes with all higher powers. Do you complain to a cop because he gives you a speeding ticket?


No.

My point exactly.


So, that makes me wonder about you, UF. You just admitted you were working with ThaSpaz and Orbitz to crash servers. Something like that makes your reputation very low (IMO, the same level as them)


I only set up the bouncer to let them on. Other than that, not really.

But you still worked with them. You gave them the way to get back onto the servers. That makes you an accomplice.

[NovaStar]

An Australian listserver wold cover Indonesia but a Russian listserver would take care of Asia.

[Trafton]

An Australian listserver wold cover Indonesia but a Russian listserver would take care of Asia.

I don't think we have JJ2 players in Indonesia to speak of.

I'm also not sure we have enough Australians to justify a list server there.

[MoonBlazE]

An Australian listserver wold cover Indonesia but a Russian listserver would take care of Asia.
I do not think it is worth setting up an entire server to speed up the connection for what is about one or two players (you, and peharps someone else). Servers are time consuming and costly.

[NovaStar]

If you guys actually went on JJ2 often inside the times that Australians would be on you'd see there's quite a few.

[MoonBlazE]

If you guys actually went on JJ2 often inside the times that Australians would be on you'd see there's quite a few.
If you pay for and moderate the list server, I am more than sure that something could be worked out. The problem is just, you're not, so there's not really anything to talk about. The current list server is fine, upgrade your connection if anything.

[Sonyk]

If you guys actually went on JJ2 often inside the times that Australians would be on you'd see there's quite a few.
Just because Australians would be on at those times doesn't mean that they are Australian. If you could get an active petition going, you might be able to rack up support.

But seeing as how you've yet to prove that they are Australian and want such a server or that they are having difficulty with the current listserver setups, there's no reason to do it.

And for the record, lots of people have asked for the list server in the past, and many of them came out empty-handed and disappointed. You're probably no exception.

[Torkell]

I am amused at the number of people who think that having a list server next door will let them connect to more *game* servers.

Just to clarify things: there are two sorts of servers used when playing JJ2 online. One sort are list servers. Think of a list server as a sort of telephone enquiries system. It has a list of all game servers, along with where the game servers are. You contact the list server, and ask it for a list of games. It then gives you a snapshot of it's list. It doesn't matter if this takes a while. A few hundred milliseconds is fine, even a whole second or two. All it's doing is giving you a list. With the number of JJ2 players, an old 486 on a 28.8k modem would probably be enough (no offence to Nimrod and his plans for world-wide list-server domination).

The other sort of server is the game server. This is the actual server you connect to when you're playing an online game of JJ2. Now, this server has to do a lot of things, like deal with everyone moving around in the level and tell other players where everyone is, who's taking pot-shots at who, and what's up with the blue flag that just got nicked. This server has to both a) send a lot more data, and b) send it in real-time (a delay of ~100ms gets annoying, and more than ~300ms is often unplayable). Think of it as a conference call with other people: if you're too far behind, then you won't be able to keep track of what's going on.

To get a list of servers, all you need is a list server somewhere you can access. To play online without too much lag, what you need is a game server somewhere relatively nearby (note that 'nearby' can be a few countries away, if the intermediate connection is good enough

Oh, and server bandwidth does *not* depend on the distance of the host. Bandwidth is how much data you can send per second, not how long it takes to get there. Think of your connection as a pipe: the bigger the pipe, the larger the bandwidth. A longer pipe means stuff takes more time to get from one end to the other.

[NovaStar]

So, a petition it is.
*starts new poll*

[Birdie]

so, the people here would get the best speed?
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5049/tmp3zr.png

[NovaStar]

Actually, I made a List Server Coverage map.
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/6791/listservercoveragemap6ks.png

[n00b]

I'm in the pink and I still have to 5 or so seconds for the list servers to pop up.
Apparently, an Australian Listserver will not fix anything.

[Radium]

I'm in the pink and I still have to 5 or so seconds for the list servers to pop up.In the pink you are still rather far from both. You just happen to be really far from two of them at once.

[Link]

Those coverage maps, even Nimrod's first one, are useless. <b>Anyone with Internet access is 'covered'</b>. Furthermore, the connection speed related to geographic distance from the list servers is negligible beside your own slow residential connection. And as BoggyB quite adequately explained, speed and latency (delay) are not even important for a server that just gives you a short list.

For me, in western Canada, a ping reply from Nimrod's server takes about 130ms. Monolith's is about half that, while Contrabandent (US) is also about 130ms. Consider that human perception time at its best is around 500ms (milliseconds). A blink of the eye takes 100&ndash;150ms.

[NovaStar]

While in Australia, Monolith's is around 370ms and I don't have the IP of the others so I can't tell.

[ThunderPX]

Nimrod's server pings from 130ms to 280ms.

Still,
Consider that human perception time at its best is around 500ms (milliseconds).

[n00b]

In the pink you are still rather far from both. You just happen to be really far from two of them at once.
Then we must make a listserver around here so I can get my full coverage!

[NovaStar]

Then we must make a listserver around here so I can get my full coverage!

Uhmmmm...
Is this sarcasticness?

[Puffie40]

OMG GUYS WE FORGETS ABOUT SOUTH AMERICA LOL.

I stated in a previous post that the bandwith depends on the LOCATION of the GAME server, not the location of the LIST server.


Shall I point it out in text diagram?

You start up jj2 and tell it to find some partymode games. so:


Your computer-> Thousands of kilometers of wire-> List server


The list server give you a list of games that are on currently. so:


List server-> Thousands of kilometers of wire-> Your computer


You choose a game ("UFS SERVER OF DOOM LOL") so, your computer sends out a connection request to the GAME SERVER. so:

Your computer -> Thousands of kilometers of wire -> Game server

Get it? The list server only detects games in progress. The reason we have to connect to them when we start a new game server is to let the list servers know the game is online.

[n00b]

BTW my post was the sarcastic conclusion I've been setting up for a while.
In case it wasnt obvious

[Tweeter]

Actually, I made a List Server Coverage map.
I made it better.
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8424/listservercoveragemap6ks4ky.png

[Sonyk]

1 luv u :)))

[R3ptile]

Stop complaining, noone cares. Nimrod and Monolith win.