Far from the source code :/

[jam]

We appear to be far from getting the source code or even making a fangame from scratch using original sprites and everything.

Maybe a few of you might know me- I am Jam (nothing to do with jamster) and have been playing Jazz Jackrabbit 2 online since early 2005. I am currently a member of the RR clan.

Last month (or maybe the month before, im not so great at estimating time :P) I decided I would take up the project of creating a Jazz Jackrabbit 2 fangame/rebuild. Because I tend to make sure I do things legally and the idea of Jazz Jackrabbit 2 is copyright Epic MegaGames, I emailed epic asking for permission.

You may be interested by these emails. My messages are in italics and messages from Epic are in bold.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jamie M [mailto:jamclx@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 2:13 PM
>> To: Mark Rein
>> Subject: Permission to create a Jazz Jackrabbit 2 Fangame
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am an amateur software programmer and a member of the Jazz
>> Jackrabbit
>> 2 community. As Epic Games no longer support Jazz Jackrabbit
>> 2 and it does have many bugs, I would like to make a fangame.
>>
>> Now I know Epic is a large company and I doubt you would be
>> concerned with such matters but for legal reasons I am asking
>> you for permission to make a fangame.
>>
>> This would mean borrowing the tilesets, sprites and remixing
>> the music from Jazz Jackrabbit 2- are you OK with that?
>>
>> There are basically 2 options for the Jazz Jackrabbit 2 fans
>> to choose from right now and they are:
>>
>> * Make a 1.25 patch to fix all the bugs
>> * Remake the game
>>
>> I know that making a patch for the game as it is now would
>> require the source code to I would like to think about
>> remaking the engine from scratch.
>>
>> There is a big community out there depending on me!
>>
>> -Jamie
>>

Jamie,

I'm sorry but this is not something we can consider. We no longer let
outside developers make games with our intellectual properties.


Mark Rein
Epic Games Inc.

Visit us at http://www.epicgames.com

What if I got people to redraw the sprites/tilesets and wrote
original music just using the idea/concept of JJ2? Would that be ok?

Sorry but that wouldn't be OK either. Jazz is our intellectual property
and our lawyers tell us we have to defend it.


Mark Rein
Epic Games Inc.

Visit us at http://www.epicgames.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Jamie M <jamclx@gmail.com>
To: Mark Rein <mrein@epicgames.com>
Sent: Sat Feb 11 06:58:14 2006
Subject: Final request

PLEASE can I make a FREE fangame of JJ2?! I would not make ANY profit on
it and I can verify the users are real OWNERS of JJ2 by checking the MD5
hash of Jazz2.exe.

Considering your company don't even care about the game it's not really
going to be much of a problem if a FREE, NON-COMMERCIAL fangame is made!

I will give Epic FULL, CLEAR credit inside the game and I need NOTHING
from you but your permission.

Thanks in advance,
Jamie

Jamie,

I'm sorry but can't give permission for something like this.


Mark Rein
Epic Games Inc.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

There. I hope someone finds that "delightful" conversation with Epic Games useful.

From Jam.

[NovaStar]

Well, it seems to me they want full credit of Jazz and no-one else to make a fan-game thingy.

Unless you made a completely different game with rabbits and somehow make it so you won't be sued, I see no way there'll be a fan-game and/or patch in the future.
Unless... nah. They probably wouldn't care anyway.

[FQuist]

I don't see where you get the conclusion that this is about the source. This seems to be mostly about fan-games. Mark Rein mentioning their lawyers telling him that they 'have to defend it' seems like a way to just get rid of further inquiries. I wouldn't think Lawyers were the main policy makers within Epic.

ShadowRabbit: You cannot read into the future, so I don't think you can make statements about it.

[Neobeo]

Wow, I actually found it quite disturbing the way Mark Rein replied in brief sentences with a "sorry" everytime. From what I've read about other such "fangames", the problem is usually not an issue of profit, but of reputation. They probably believe that a low-quality (that's not to say your game will be bad) fangame will bring the name of Jazz down. Although, I have no idea why they would care for something like that.

I'm personally not any good with this legal stuff, but I do not understand why making a 1.25 patch (let's say through ASM) would be a breach of intellectual property if it does not "copy" any ideas.

Either way, they seem very persistent on this issue, and in my opinion the use of "We no longer let outside developers..." implies that they have had a previous bad experience.

[Haze]

Wow, he seems feisty about protecting an "old" property such as Jazz Jackrabbit. I wonder why... :p

[n00b]

Hey guys, isn't it perfectly legal to make a UT2004 mod about Jazz Jackrabbit?
The reason someone hasn't done that is...?

[Blobby]

I find it absolutely ridiculous. Why do they need to protect Jazz Jackrabbit, when they're probably never going to add anything to the franchise! I think they should value devoted customers like us more.

[Sonyk]

Thing is, we're not customers. Or devoted. If we were, we would've moved on to Unreal by now.

[Violet CLM]

Hey guys, isn't it perfectly legal to make a UT2004 mod about Jazz Jackrabbit?
Yes... but don't remind Mark, he might change his mind.

[Black Ninja]

A JJ mod for UT2004 would be 100% legal. Heck, they even have character models for Mario and Sonic. Not only would it be legal, it would probably bring attention back to our community. However, my guess is that no one is going to make such a mod.

[Birdie]

i would if i had any unreal script and unreal editor knowlage.

[n00b]

I'll go buy UT2004 when I have the cash and possibly attempt making a mod.

[ThunderPX]

As far as I know it's completely legal to make a non-profit fan-game. (http://sfghq.emulationzone.org)

[BattleSpaz]

Ill stick with my mind:
They are secretly doing new jazz product and get jazz great again, or then they are just stupid.

[Marijn]

quit funny.. I thought the same thing.
but look at the facs.. ther just lose a lot of money on jazz. And i don't think ther make a new product ever.. Some makers are looking for a new job.. and where the hell is noogy.... i think there a stupid.

I just hope Baggers complete his project, thats the only good projects out ther ( yeah yeah.. and openjazz, but can't call that a new game thought )

[n00b]

Actually, GoD made a loss on JJ2 due to bad advertising(I think I only saw 2 ads for it in my whole lifetime). Also JJ3 wasn't finished due to the same reason many promising games never get finished: these days, publishers dont like taking risks. Epic couldn't find a publisher, and thus had to cease the game's creation.

But if Midway(Epic's publisher I believe) sees potential in a new Jazz game, it's pretty much going to be made.

[FQuist]

Also, Project II made a lot of money on the game.

[ThunderPX]

Also, Project II made a lot of money on the game.

They still went bankrupt though... :\

[Sonyk]

Actually, GoD made a loss on JJ2 due to bad advertising(I think I only saw 2 ads for it in my whole lifetime).
Ironically, I found out about JJ2 because of an advertisement in Nick Magazine.

[FQuist]

Thunder: Yes, but they have stated themselves this was not due to JJ2 - on the contrary, they survived a longer time despite of bad sales of other games due to JJ2.

[JelZe GoldRabbit]

Back at those letters... Law can be a tricky thing to interpret, especially copyrights.

Technically fangames are illegal, because the characters in them are used by someone other than the owner, which is copyright infrigment, no matter the outcome (like loss of profit). So why aren't fan-games removed, or the creators sued then? Because they're not worth the parent company's time and money, so most of the time fangames are either ignored or taken for granted.

Epic giving the green light (Hell will freeze over when that happens) would result in formalities like royalties and licensing, not just credits. So in short, no money, no Jazz, no game.

- JelZe GoldRabbit =:3

[n00b]

Ironically, I found out about JJ2 because of an advertisement in Nick Magazine.
Really? My ads were in some Disney Magazine.
I found out about JJ2 from JJ1 tho.

[ThunderPX]

I found out about JJ2 by getting the shareware version from a disc that came with the German gaming magazine Gamestar. My brother always read it back then, especially because of the full games that came with it on the discs. At first I didn't believe him when he said there was a Jazz 2 on the disc. =P

[Ricerind]

Hey, stuff the legalities, if epic wont give us the source code i declare that we should take it by force. Why doesn't someone just decompile jazz2.exe, eh voila, source code released! Epic has abandoned jazz jackrabbit, we are the true owners!

[cooba]

Why doesn't someone just decompile jazz2.exeBecause that will not allow us to add features in it?

[Monolith]

Hey, stuff the legalities, if epic wont give us the source code i declare that we should take it by force. Why doesn't someone just decompile jazz2.exe, eh voila, source code released! Epic has abandoned jazz jackrabbit, we are the true owners!
Because decompiling an executable does not give you the original source code.

[Marijn]

Are you sure ? I don;t even know HOW you can do it. So far i know i can only decompile .NET programs.. Managed Programs. And what you ever want to do with the source ??

[Torkell]

It is possible to decompile some programs, depending on the complexity of the program and what language was used. Java and managed .NET programs can be decompiled to some extant due to the fact they get compiled in the first place to an intermediate bytecode, and also due to the fact that a lot of the original source is included in the final executable (e.g. class definitions, member names). Programs written in C/C++ can't really be decompiled, due to how compilation works for them. Expecially in the case of C, there is little information, if any, about the original source stored in the executable. Compiler optimisations also make it near-impossible to recover the original code.

You *can* dissassemble C/C++ programs, however this does not give you the source. What this gives you is the machine code, reformatted slightly for readability. It is possible to edit this code, however it is not the original source and so does not give you any of the information in the original source (this is what Unknownfile did with his patches). While you get portions of the program, you have no knowledge of the original context of the code, what the function was called, or how the function was intended to be called.

[Neobeo]

Or from the disassembly, you can reverse engineer it by tracing/stepping through each line one by one, and converting it to C++. Which will require a lot of time and motivation. The hardest part of this is usually identifying the significance of each variable stored in memory, (which means to give the variable a name).

[ShadeJackrabbit]

Holy (-). Epic is acting like the most annoying (-) ever. They don't even mention Jazz Jackrabbit ANYWHERE on their site. I say: Make a fangame, because if they sue you, they'll lose! Because they can prove no loss of profits from a fan game of a game that they don't support anymore. It happened with Kings Quest. And epic mights sell the game again to prove loss. So, IOW, Jazz 2 would have more publicity. And you might lose $4000 american.

[Sonyk]

You don't seem to understand much about the corporate world, Zapper. Because Epic holds the rights to Jazz Jackrabbit, they have every right to prevent people from making anything featuring his likeness. And the odds of them ever selling JJ2 again are slim, because they never sold it themselves (except for download, I think). That's the job of a publisher, not a developer.

[ShadeJackrabbit]

But, they need a basis to sue upon. So they should need to prove that whatever is being done is damaging them, right? And the publishers aren't around anymore, (as far as I know) and the ones that are don't sell it/support it/mention it either (I think.) Right?

[NovaStar]

Hmmm... GoD is gone (I think), PI2's gone, Epic still lives and Orange Games (I think) lives, so both Epic and Orange Games <s>c</s>would sue you (if Orange is dead just Epic).

[Violet CLM]

Hmmm... GoD is gone (I think).
<a href="http://www.godgames.com/">...did you even consider checking?</a>

[Stijn]

Because they can prove no loss of profits from a fan game of a game that they don't support anymore.
They do not need to prove loss of profits. They legally own the Jazz Jackrabbit characters and trademark etc. so they can allow or disallow people from making things featuring JJ characters without further motivation.

[MTK]

So... did anyone actually really think Epic was just going to throw the source to us?

Chances are even if they wanted to, it'd be in terrible condition over the years and require a lot of maintainence and fiddling, which I can only assume Epic wouldn't want to distract themselves over.

[FQuist]

So... did anyone actually really think Epic was just going to throw the source to us?

Chances are even if they wanted to, it'd be in terrible condition over the years and require a lot of maintainence and fiddling, which I can only assume Epic wouldn't want to distract themselves over.
I notice multiple people in this topic mentioning the source code and not getting it. Their arguments seem wrongheaded, since Mark Rein didn't say anything about the source code at all.

The people (including the topic starter) making the assumption that Rein's e-mail somehow said that he refused to give the source seem to be not reading the mail correctly.

The source code was not mentioned at all, and Rein talked about using characters copyrighted by Epic in homemade games and giving out JJ2 commercial content for free, something which is widely different from a release of the source code (which does not neccessarily involve giving away Epic's intellectual property for free).

[BattleSpaz]

Even I wouldnt hive my games source codes for free! They may release it free, sometime. But if you want it now, you may have to pay...
<s>Maybe giving Epic money would help!</s> <s>10000$ because its the best game in the world!</s> <s>1000$</s> <s>100$</s> <s>10 bucks because its old game.</s> Or then we just wait...

[NovaStar]

WR, I did say (I think). Do you read brackets?
Oh, and I highly worship the common sense in that post. Page Claim in the name of <s>a fan game</s> (Will never happen) Epic saying yes to <s>Odin's threads</s> JJ2 fangames!

[White Rabbit]

WR, I did say (I think). Do you read brackets?
...this is my first post here. But I know you meant UR.

Yes.

So, it's useful to distinguish between purple and white.

[Violet CLM]

Of course I read your brackets. The fact that you thought something as opposed to being sure about something has nothing to do with the fact that it was wrong and that you could have checked it if you took a few quick seconds.
EDIT: <img src="http://www.tachyonlabs.com/sam/Greenrabbit.png">

[jam]

The people (including the topic starter) making the assumption that Rein's e-mail somehow said that he refused to give the source seem to be not reading the mail correctly.

Err, I was referring to the fact that if he isn't even going to let us make a fangame from scratch we are far from the source code.

[FQuist]

The situations aren't remotely alike.

[Cheese]

but anyways.....

The only way Epic could stop us from making a fan game
is by sueing us. and thatwould be a waste of time for them.
besides the fact it has been done millions of times before,
and they probably wouldn't notice anyways. and if a fan game
was made, it would be the creator(the jj2 community)'s property.
therefore, copywrited by, us. so, if we want to program a JJ2
fangame, heck, even make a jj2 sequel, even make something
in game maker for crying out loud, we can.
and that's it for my ramblings.
and sorry, i was too lazy to use proper capitalization and stuff.

[n00b]

No we can't.
Show us where it says we own the rights to "Jazz jack rabbit, Spaz jack rabbit, "the bunny", or any character in JJ2"
Loosely quoted from the TOS you agreed to when installing JJ2.

[Cheese]

meh.

but we still can make the games. like what i said,
(and whoever else said) it's been done millions of times
before with coppywrited characters, like Mario, Sonic, etc.
so why can't we?

[n00b]

As alreadu said, those are illegal too, but it seems Sega and Nintendo aren't going after them. Mainly because people who make Sonic fangames aren't stupid enough to contact Sega and say "Hey there, we're doing something illegal, care to support it?"
Square however is less lineant on this, and has sent cease and desist letters to people who made fangames using their properties(even if that person never contacted square to give them the heads up).

[NovaStar]

So, it's useful to distinguish between purple and white.
Must be half color-blind.

[Jerrythabest]

...aren't stupid enough to contact Sega and say "Hey there, we're doing something illegal, care to support it?"Just pointing Jam on this kind reply :)

Anyway,

it would be the creator(the jj2 community)'s property.True
therefore, copywrited by, us.Untrue

You own your own fangame (duh).. but you can only get the copyrights for the characters and such by buying the copyrights;)

[Tubz]

I don't think lawyers really care about a situation like this. Notice how Rein said "I'm sorry" in every post, with not much thought involved. Constant use of words like "Intellectual Property," he basically said the same thing 3 times. So this is how Epic is, still the same after all these years, with their 1-2 liner emails.

[Trafton]

I don't think lawyers really care about a situation like this. Notice how Rein said "I'm sorry" in every post, with not much thought involved. Constant use of words like "Intellectual Property," he basically said the same thing 3 times. So this is how Epic is, still the same after all these years, with their 1-2 liner emails.

What is he going to do, write us a sonata? He said what he needed to say. He has other things to do than go on and on about simple concepts. The fact that he said he was sorry and was polite and unaggressive is all one can reasonably expect from an interaction like this.

[Tubz]

Yep, but he could use a bit more creativity in his posts, rather than say the same thing like 3 times.

[FQuist]

Why should he?

[Jerrythabest]

that would look far more professional and more interested

[Violet CLM]

Interested? Why should he be at all interested? He doesn't care, it's just part of his job to say no. And if his responses varied, people would just keep contacting him. He has an unchanging position and there's no reason to represent it differently every time.

[Stijn]

It's somewhat exceptional that the guy in charge of a big company like Epic actually takes the time to answer us personally.

[Grytolle]

Yeah. And they have proven themselves to be accommodating enough, by redirecting the old listserver path to Nimmy's list. I like Epic lately.

[Jerrythabest]

I still dont like epic.

[Stijn]

Try giving a reason!

[Jerrythabest]

they dont give a (--) about JJ2:P

[Marijn]

aaaaarg... [* put some flame here *]
Nobody hold a gun to Epics head to redirect the serverlist... I like them :D

[Stijn]

Oh, they don't? I think they do, or they wouldn't have forwarded the list server recently.

Apart from that, they indeed don't show a lot of interest (apart from CliffyB who mentions the game from time to time) but I can't say I'm very surprised. The game is 8 years old after all, if I were Epic I wouldn't pay much attention to it anymore either.

[Jerrythabest]

poor you:P now I dont like you too:P 8D


okay, the thing of the serverlists is good, indeed. I hope it's just the beginning of the revival of this game.

[n00b]

Not liking a Super Moderator isn't the best step you've made, Jerry.

I still like Epic. They make quality games, redirected the serverlists, and at least personally respond to us. Thats more than any other corperation would have done. They've already gone up and above the standard for communication about an 8 year old game, we really shouldn't expect more than they've already done.

[Stijn]

Not liking a Super Moderator isn't the best step you've made, Jerry.
If things like that would influence me certain people would already be banned ;)

[Violet CLM]

It is in their interests to respond and say no, though. 3D Realms does that too.

[NovaStar]

Epic hasn't done anything for us Aussie JJ2ers so I don't think they're too flash.

[Stijn]

Why would they do something especially for gamers from Australia?

[NovaStar]

Actually I haven't seen anything from them in Aus. I wonder how JJ2 got here then, seeing as I got given a copy from a school...

[FQuist]

I'd think that the Australian publisher of the game, not the producer, should do "something" specially for Australian players.

[NovaStar]

Right, but I still see no Epic...

[Jerrythabest]

start JJ2 and don't skip the intros ;)

[Trafton]

Right, but I still see no Epic...

Why should they go out of their way to do a favour on an obscure game that even most people here agree is unnecessary? Again, we have few Aussie JJ2 players; certainly, we have at least four or five times as many Europeans and three or four times as many Americans.

If your idea of a successful working interchange is to get exactly what you want while the other person is forced to go out of their way, beyond the point which their job requires, even though they do not know you, you will live a life of frequent disappointment.