B.net-like ladder system?

[R3ptile]

first of all i'm very tired and also quite in a rush so forgive me for any lame grammar\spelling errors i make.

it's all started in a public server where people were discussing about how wicked it would be if jj2 could've used the Warcraft 3 online system. then i just thought, why not try and make many jazzers' dream come true?

for all those who don't know what i'm talking about, i'll try and explain briefly how Battle.net works.

after registering an account, you're available to access your account (where all your stats are logged) from any computer that has JJ2 installed in it. after logging in, you get into an IRC-server like chatroom where you can find and discuss with other players from all around the globe about the game and also check out their profile where their stats are presented.

then comes the interesting part. there are levels from 0-50 and avatars which you acquire by winning games and reaching objectives (win 50 duels in BBLAIR and you can use a big Devan icon, for instance). in order to start a game, you need to choose level (therefore ladder games would most likely be limited to a few levels only) and gametype (solo, random teams or arranged teams), then a special system would automatically match you against a player that is looking for a game as well and is in your level or close to it. each gametype has its own ladder where players are ranked by their their level (determined by EXP. points). the system is also Clan-friendly. you could still organize custom games, but those wouldn't affect your ladder stats. each once in a while quick one-day tourneys (with cool prizes such as new avatars) could be organized easily.

after talking with Gry, we came into a conclusion that such a ladder system is possible to make (he found a way to edit in-game menus) and shouldn't even be too difficult to as well. therefore i decided to start some development team that would take care of this, any volunteers? :)

[n0]

Hey, quick question, if we use this kind of server database thing, would it be possible to play jazz online using a diffrent port?

Great idea, by the way.

[R3ptile]

i'd like to note that i've already planned mostly everything, i just need someone to get it work

[Hitch]

Sounds awesome. Wonder what kind of avatars there would be besides bosses and such. I guess some of the rankings could be starting from newbie all the way up to jazz master(spaz) or whatever. Sounds great. Well keep nagging people for help and I'm sure it could turn out sucessful.

[ShadeJackrabbit]

I think it's an awesome idea! It could even bring some new life into the long un-dead game!

[FireSworD]

After getting some detailed information, he seems to want theese features to be actually IN THE GAME. In other words this is 1.25 territory, only without the source code. I suggest you take small steps and try to consider other alternatives to make this work.

[Birdie]

I could probably help out, not with the actual database work of course, but I've also found some ways to edit the menu. I can program, not in C++ though or anything so it doesn't really count.

[Nimrod]

Would more than likely be a lot easier to make a program external to JJ2, but to be jj2 aware, and take stats and scores from the game, and if the jj2 server was using it, make clients programs connect to it and such like that ;p

[FireSworD]

I was about the suggest that alternative but you stated it a lot better than I would Nimrod. Thanks for that one.

Anyway I think the idea has potential but keep in mind there are few programmers in this community that enjoy competiton enough to care about such a project.

[MoonBlazE]

I liked the web profiles of WC3. It promoted my ego. We should have that here.

But seriously. It's a good and easy idea taking Nimrod's suggestion. Just gotta make sure there's no cheating, and the profiles should hosted on Jazz2online perharps in system with the current account system.

[ShadeJackrabbit]

Hmm... that would be interesting. But it shouldn't start as newbie, it should start at "(unranked)". Just something I wanted to point out.

[FireSworD]

Yes, to put it bluntly its purpose is merely to stroke egos but in doing so doesn't this help the community? after all look at how the number of new reviews was affected after the removal of the ranking system.

By the way R3ptile, I think you should consult with me asap, I have some ideas I'd like to discuss with you in relation to the ranks.

[R3ptile]

Would more than likely be a lot easier to make a program external to JJ2, but to be jj2 aware, and take stats and scores from the game, and if the jj2 server was using it, make clients programs connect to it and such like that ;p
yeah great idea, but still something designed well, like a completely new game

[ShadowGPW]

Honestly, I think this game is way to small to keep that ladder system alive and well.

[R3ptile]

we'll see..:rolleyes:

[Grytolle]

Building it into the game doesn't require the source code. I can't really see the use of having it inbuilt though

[Superjazz]

I posted already this to the newspost-comments without seeing the thread first, so now I am posting it here with some edits.

There could be also a ladder for Free For All. In this case, a small "AYCR" of 4-6 players. The player to reach the score-limit, or most roasts in an amount of time, wins.

About the icons; There could be Bad Guy-icons for an ‘x’ amount of wins. Icons would depend on the character, and on something else if possible. For example 15 wins on Jazz—>Lizard-icon. And for the maximum amount of wins, some boss-icon would fit. 1000 wins with Jazz—>Devan-icon.

I think there should be rather just a mappool of those default levels, where you can only "thumb down" 1-2 levels. That way a player can't stick to only one level, and must be able to play in at least a few other levels. So there's just some more to be prepared for.

How much stats are being given for players? How many roasts you did? Well, that one is yet simple, but would it be even possible to see so minor details, like how many PUs you’ve picked with that character, etc.

[ShadowGPW]

Problem of a ladders system is keeping it active, a live and interesting. Ladders are the hardest to maintain and least populair system for the competitive gaming world.

Cups are much more easy to maintain since they are a 1 time event. Not an on-going one like ladders. Leagues with seedings divisions might be a better solution. Since those are kind of a mix between cups and ladders. Plus it's more fair and you can base it on a season.

Battle.net has the advantage that anyone on anytime can play a ladder. Without to much trouble of a 3rd party program or website. Also, winning a ladder brings you big money and fame on battle.net. Which is ofcourse a huge motivation to actually play it. Last but not least is, is that WarCraft 2/WarCraft 3/StarCraft has litterly millions of people playing it. So the ladder isn't affected when groups of people leave or come.

I've seen alot of ladders going dead on ClanBase, ESL, CAL, TWL etc etc because a group of people didn't agree with rule changes so they just leave the ladder and kills it off.

example of a league:
Prime Group:
1
2
3
4
5 - Next Season demoted
6 - demoted

Group Alpha:
1 - Next Season Promoted
2 - Promoted
3 -
4 -
5 -
6 -
7 - Next Season Demoted
8 - Demoted

Group Beta - etc etc

[Nimrod]

But seriously. It's a good and easy idea taking Nimrod's suggestion. Just gotta make sure there's no cheating, and the profiles should hosted on Jazz2online perharps in system with the current account system.


The external program could try and "detect" known cheating programs like Ultrawarp and whatever is being used these days. Bit like those UTSecure and stuff use to do on UnrealTournament, where the mod ran on the client machines and checked if the known cheating programs were running. And if they are detected, even disable itself, or alert in game. Not 100% secure, but would stop the casual cheating that goes on.

And like it could keep a note of the players position, and detect if the pos changes suddenly without reason. Though I guess it would need a way to detect legal warps (eg warpzone in the level).

I'm not a programmer so I have no idea whats possible, but going from conversation from Overlord and looking at current programs out I dont see why this wouldnt be possible, though a lot of work.

[CrimiClown]

Hmm... Sounds fun... Might get me more active again, too, and I don't think that I'm just speaking for myself there.

[Jerrythabest]

if you ever get to finish this, I'll surely give it a try... though I think this game is indeed too small for such huge things to work so I doubt if it even ever gets finished :roll:

would be (-) cool though :D

[Superjazz]

For R3p's request, I made a suggesting list of what icons would there be for each character, for an amount of wins.

Everyone start out as a Norm Turtle

Jazz
15 wins - Lizard
45 wins - Dragon
90 wins - Rapier
150 wins - Sparks
250 wins - Hatter
325 wins - Tuf Turt
400 wins - Bolly
500 wins - Devil Devan

Spaz
15 wins - Helmut
45 wins - Bat
90 wins - Raven
150 wins - Demon
250 wins - Monkey
325 wins - Sucker
400 wins - Bubba
500 wins - Bilsy

If there's something for Lori of TSF, then I'd go this way

15 wins - Labrat
45 wins - Dragon Fly
90 wins - (Secret) Blue Ghost
150 wins - Floating Sucker(?)
250 wins - Addon DOG
325 wins - Witch
400 wins - Rocket Turtle
500 wins - Queen

[FireSworD]

325 wins - Sucker

This ones' gonna keep me going for a while.

[ShadowGPW]

500 wins - Devil Devan

i don't think anyone will make it in the next 10 years of jj2 to 500 wins tbh.

[Grytolle]

Why not? ;o It's just ten wins a day in some months

[n00b]

Why not? ;o It's just ten wins a day in some months

Less than two months actually. Considering that ten wins doesn't take that long, a dedicated player who doesn't even need alot of free time could easily snag the rank in a relatively short amount of time.

[ShadowGPW]

You seriously think people will keep on playing against you after you crushed them 5 times in a row? Especially if you want to make it to 500 within 2 months. I seriously doubt you will make it to 500 in that short period of time. You can bet on that.

If people start to care about their ranks and ratings the activity goes down on a limited group of players. People lose the motivation to keep on playing in the ladder and eventually the drop out.

A 3rd party ladder system is the worst tournament structure for a tiny game as jazz.

[Grytolle]

I thought there was some kind of matching system, but sure. Also, you don't need to take as much personal blame if it's a team game.

EDIT: The activity is already down to a limited group of players, so it can hardly get any worse.

[R3ptile]

I thought there was some kind of matching system, but sure. Also, you don't need to take as much personal blame if it's a team game.

EDIT: The activity is already down to a limited group of players, so it can hardly get any worse.
there is quite a huge group of players, most of them just either play in Battle Server or host their own games all the time

[Jerrythabest]

is there anyone who noticed that not everyone will sign up for this? the group of players participating will be even smaller

[ShadowGPW]

bingo, thats my point. Jj2 is to small to keep the ladder alive. Especially the hardcore and competive gamers is just so mega small that it is bound to fail. It might work out fine the first month.. but after that, when the 'newish' feeling is gone. The activity will slowly drop and ladder bleeds to death.

I have to much experiance with that on ClanBase :-)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it.. but i'm trying to prevent you guys in wasting a lot of time and effort to add such a system. The ideas are wonderfull but i highly doubt that it would work out.

[R3ptile]

i have some (-) good ideas to keep it entertaining and thrilling even for a period of YEARS

[ShadowGPW]

you get a 1 case of the best Dutch ale if you manage to keep it alive and active for 5 years. Since you have really good plans..

Which is absolutely doubtfull.

[Michael]

Sorry but I don't like the idea. I don't like games where people log stats like kills and deaths, sure it's interesting, but it just mkaes people play to keep their kill death ratio better or to keep a good record, instead of focusing on fun. I like the fact it will be a big development to JJ2 but I also think that these negative aspects are too significant.

[FQuist]

This thread makes me remember a conversation I had with (community legend) Mez in an abandoned Anniversary Bash server, where he told me how glad he was JJ2 didn't have a ladder system, since that generally made people care more and more about competition and little about just playing for the fun of it and fairplay. He said it was noticeable from the friendliness of the community and the "fun" people were able to have that we did not have such a system, and bade us to never create such a thing, since the uncompetitiveness was the thing that set this community apart. I even have the conversation on log somewhere I think.

Just relaying.

(to be completely honest, the people in this community who just have a fun time, *do* like some competitive play but wouldn't really care about reputation, ego, etc, seem to me the people generally who make this community so fun and pleasant)

[R3ptile]

i am still looking for programmers

[Stijn]

keep going

[Nimrod]

I fully understand peoples feelings inregards to ladders and stats, I myself when playing on Xbox Live tend not to play in Ranked Servers as I find its too competetive and more about points than fun.

Then again you see I have a choice, I dont have to play Ranked Games, and it would be the same if Reptile ever managed to actually pull this off in JJ2, people could easily ignore his system and play online using the old fashioned way for fun if they so wished. So to be perfectly fair, there is no reason to even mention about not liking stats, its simple, don't play on his system when it comes out.

[KRSplat]

But this community as a whole is uncompetitive when it comes to JJ2. So where are the stat fiends going to come from?

[R3ptile]

But this community as a whole is uncompetitive when it comes to JJ2.
The ones who still play the game are all into competitions.

[Stijn]

That's not true.

However, it is indeed true that a lot of people play JJ2 without ever coming here. With a bit of mouth-to-mouth advertising (hey, it's how J2O became popular) it won't be hard to let them know of the ladder.

[ShadowGPW]

Cups are MUCH more differently then ladders (and much more competitive). For ladders a huge AND active userbase is a required piece of work. Jazz Jackrabbit fails in both.

[Michael]

I fully understand peoples feelings inregards to ladders and stats, I myself when playing on Xbox Live tend not to play in Ranked Servers as I find its too competetive and more about points than fun.

Then again you see I have a choice, I dont have to play Ranked Games, and it would be the same if Reptile ever managed to actually pull this off in JJ2, people could easily ignore his system and play online using the old fashioned way for fun if they so wished. So to be perfectly fair, there is no reason to even mention about not liking stats, its simple, don't play on his system when it comes out.
Then the community will be split, that's ever worse.

[Jerrythabest]

we have a split community already (1.23/1.24) so then we'll have four communities :rolleyes:

I'd suggest making a three-month poll to see how many people are interested in playing this ladder system, how many are interested in watching others playing and how many are not interested at all and will just ignore the system. And maybe another poll too just to see how long people think it will be alive.

Check for people who will use your product first, else it will fail for sure. :p

[R3ptile]

no<o>

[Sasik]

Well, whatever? If R3p and few other motivated people want to run this ladder, then why not? Will you forbid them that? ;P How? ;p
Just give it a try, I don't think we can lose anything, and the idea is great. And yes, it's likely that there might occur problems with the activity but we won't know that untill the ladder starts.

[Xplosive]

After reading all the post I came with a conclusion that this might not be a good idea, jerrys point mostly became intresting , there isn't much people who play jj2 , and as it seems half the people at the moment don't seem to like the idea , it will split the community.

I just think there isn't much people to apply for this ladder , and if they do it will split the community up a bit. so In coclusion i don't think this is a good idea.

But im just one person with my own opinion ;)

[Stijn]

This community is barely ever supportive of initiatives like this. Everyone's always like "you won't get enough people anyway", "why bother, this game is dead", et cetera. If Reptile wants to set this up what's wrong with that? Can't you just wait and see whether it works before judging it? Why would it split the community anyway? It's not like people who join the ladder will suddenly refuse to talk to people who don't or something.

People need to be a bit more open-minded here.

[ShadowGPW]

stijn, this has nothing to do with being openminded at all. I don't get it why your so optimistic and closed minded about this situation. This is being about being realistic. I Still haven't seen a solid reason here why it should work, why should people invest expansive time to make this a succes if all basics of an active ladder has been cursed away in JJ2 before it even started?

Yes, JDC works. But JDC is not a ladder but more league and is seasonal based.

So as ive said before, don't get me wrong. I'm a fan of competitive gaming in any type of game, but this seriously can't work.. the 2 basic needs of a ladder is.. active + the massive.. Jj2 misses both. A working ladder needs atleast 50 solid teams/players to make it work. How-ever, it still doesn't mean it couldn't die off over time.

What i know from experiance is that ladders are the least favorite competitive gaming tournament there is. There is a great list of reasons why people start to dislike ladders and prefer Cups or Leagues.

[Violet CLM]

This community is barely ever supportive of initiatives like this. Everyone's always like "you won't get enough people anyway", "why bother, this game is dead", et cetera. If Reptile wants to set this up what's wrong with that? .

What's wrong is that this community is barely ever supportive of initiatives like this. And such initiatives run on community participation.

[FireSworD]

I spoke with R3ptile recently and suggested he should try working in small steps; to get something basic released first and see how the community reacts, and if it's a success then there is no reason not to add more updates and get something like battle.net.

After all, we lose nothing even if it fails.

[R3ptile]

those who seem worried about activity the most don't play jj2 a lot. there are many jj2 players these days, it's just that very, very few of them visit the JCF regulary. i do my best to keep them informed about the ladder project all the time and they all seem very eager.

the community would not split, the program could not let it happen.

cheer up :p

[Xplosive]

This community is barely ever supportive of initiatives like this. Everyone's always like "you won't get enough people anyway", "why bother, this game is dead", et cetera. If Reptile wants to set this up what's wrong with that? Can't you just wait and see whether it works before judging it? Why would it split the community anyway? It's not like people who join the ladder will suddenly refuse to talk to people who don't or something.

People need to be a bit more open-minded here.



I think your a little confused on what I mean , by splitting the community up I mean slitting them up on online play , also its not good when hard work goes to waste , thats why some people don't want r3p and others to waste there time.
I was just saying what I think , it might be a good idea after all.

[n00b]

You seriously think people will keep on playing against you after you crushed them 5 times in a row? Especially if you want to make it to 500 within 2 months. I seriously doubt you will make it to 500 in that short period of time. You can bet on that.

You're acting like theres only two people playing a day, have you honestly played the game since the list server redirect?

[Grytolle]

He has. :)

[ShadeJackrabbit]

stijn, this has nothing to do with being openminded at all. I don't get it why your so optimistic and closed minded about this situation. This is being about being realistic. I Still haven't seen a solid reason here why it should work, why should people invest expansive time to make this a succes if all basics of an active ladder has been cursed away in JJ2 before it even started?
Okay, I'm extremely pessimistic, but what you said doesn't make sense to me. Are you investing any time? Will it HARM you if this doesn't work? If someone wants to set it up, let them. Personally, I don't see why you would bother getting yourself involved in something that won't affect you unless you want it to.

Go B.net-like ladder system! I might actually go online if this happens.

[ShadowGPW]

You're acting like theres only two people playing a day, have you honestly played the game since the list server redirect?

I do, more as you think and are able see. Don't start up conclusions about me if you don't know me at all.

I'm only giving my advice here from what I know and from what my experiance is with other games out there. Trust me, my experiance with online tournaments/cups/ladders, I sincerly know what i'm talking about. Perhaps more then anyone else here.

How-ever Ill also give some value advice if the project does get on the roll. Unless people want to figure some of the traps you will encounter them-selfs.You can easly flame me about it and slash me off (Thats the easy road on the net). But you could also take my words as a learning curve what to do with it to prevent one of those problems and actually think about it.

[MoonBlazE]

Shadow, you're 23. Surely you'd prefer to see a ladder that is actually a ladder. These guys don't. They're kids. It's a children's game. What they want from it is just a few scores to have something to brag of. It's motivative. On the WC3 ladder, you'd be something like 1964th even as a good player. On a JJ2 ladder you'd be 13th. It's not supposed to work (the same way), it's just supposed to be fun.

Rep also (tried) approaching me on regards of drawing icons. I'm not doing anything until I see a working system, and by then maybe just a few.

[R3ptile]

first of all most JJ2 players are not kids. secondly this ladder will indeed be a ladder and it would work almost the same way. there is a small difference that in WC3 a few people also play for money. jj2's population might be smaller but this has its own advantages as well. i still think you could find at least five opponents in your level at any time. also, you seem to miss the whole purpose here. if we just wanted something to brag of, we could stick to JDC where it's way easier to win. you barely have anything to brag of when it comes to jj2, it's not like your girlfriend would be more proud of you if you would tell her that you beat Cracco Clan in a duel.

by the way, i don't think a WC3 player ranked 13th would consider a player ranked 1964th "good". that's the way it works in jj2 as well.

[ShadeJackrabbit]

by the way, i don't think a WC3 player ranked 13th would consider a player ranked 1964th "good". that's the way it works in jj2 as well.
Yeah, but the ratios and fractions are mixed up. Number 13/2000 might say that number 1964 sucks, but saying that when you are 13/2,000,000 to 1964/2,000,000 wouldn't be right. You're directly comparing apples to oranges. They're 2 different things.

And next time, I'll explain about trigonometry. :)

[R3ptile]

dude your post doesn't make much sense but k

[Grytolle]

Just because WC3 has a bigger userbase, it doesn't mean their top players have taken the game closer to the limit than us jj2ers. A ladder can be fun even without a 20000000 noobs like MoonB..I mean noone in specific.. running around accomplishing nothing.

[MoonBlazE]

first of all most JJ2 players are not kids. secondly this ladder will indeed be a ladder and it would work almost the same way. there is a small difference that in WC3 a few people also play for money. jj2's population might be smaller but this has its own advantages as well. i still think you could find at least five opponents in your level at any time. also, you seem to miss the whole purpose here. if we just wanted something to brag of, we could stick to JDC where it's way easier to win. you barely have anything to brag of when it comes to jj2, it's not like your girlfriend would be more proud of you if you would tell her that you beat Cracco Clan in a duel.

In my eyes, most of the players on JJ2 are kids or at least behave like it. That's only offensive if you find being called a kid one. You may be surprised how many people that share that vision.

As for how far the ladder goes, nowhere without the support. I think it's a good idea. Not everyone thinks the same. Only few is supporting you so far. Be more open minded in regards to critique and you might get it going.

What Shadow says about the ladder system comparison is true, we can't make matching system based on levels at all and chances of it filling more than 1 page of players aren't that big.

Also, a ladder without matching systems or prize money is the same as a permanent JCF scoreboard as we're not going to be able to edit the way players join an online game.

by the way, i don't think a WC3 player ranked 13th would consider a player ranked 1964th "good". that's the way it works in jj2 as well.

And in response to this, I do hope you realize climbing a ladder isn't just about being good it's also about how much time you have to play games.

[R3ptile]

look man, it's obvious you are here just to find something to complain about. have you played jj2 during the last year that you pretend you care? you barely know about the situation. you also make it sound like your false statemens are facts. :)

see ya in 4 months, then we'll see how this project has turned out.

[MoonBlazE]

look man, it's obvious you are here just to find something to complain about. have you played jj2 during the last year that you pretend you care? you barely know about the situation. you also make it sound like your false statemens are facts. :)

see ya in 4 months, then we'll see how this project has turned out.
If you stopped being so annoying and rude all the time people might just support it a little. I'm not complaining. I do care. But I will certainly stop trying to reason with you now.

Have fun running a community project with the community you neglect.

[R3ptile]

oh, so you could have just posted "i hate u" and avoid all of this from the beginning :cool:

and btw, everyone except for two or three who don't even play jj2 support me and this concept completely :)

[Grytolle]

Kids play jj2. REAL MEN PLAY WC3!!!!! :D

[R3ptile]

seriously though, this guy keeps talking about the "maturity of the community" (huh?) but just look at his whole attitude, does it seem mature? not to mention the very maturity of the WC3 players as someone who's played the game for a while.

[Stijn]

Your attitude is not very mature either.

[Grytolle]

btw, changing how players join the game is not impossible

[R3ptile]

as i said, gry:

you make it sound like your false statemens are facts

[FQuist]

R3ptile, this is a discussion forum. If you're just going to reply the equivalent of "you suck" to every poster who disagrees with you, whether their points are valid or not, you're not posting in the spirit of this forum. Please stop attacking anyone who replies, since it's getting close to trolling. You don't have to agree with them - or even respond. But your current method of discussion is unwarranted and you will find further posts like that moderated.

[snzspeed]

personally i think that this concept is really nice, if it works

so lets see what happens :)

[ShadeJackrabbit]

I dunno... I think the community is quite mature, but the people who play JJ2? A lot probably aren't on the forums. Oh well. I might be able to help for a web-page, but that's all. :(

[Jerrythabest]

I could help shouting "everyone should try it" :roll:

now just go and make that system, I started to become curious what it will be like ;p

[R3ptile]

if you're so eager to help you could try and find a person who'd program this

[snzspeed]

wasn't there already a programmer?

[R3ptile]

i'm not sure, let's just wait for Mono's final statement

[Jerrythabest]

I've been looking for ages for a programmer too so don't expect me to find one ;)