suggestion for saving the jcf from certain death

[Lark]

do we really need so many subcategories of forums? like, let's be honest, this community is 12+ years old, not that many people post here and the forum is seemingly even less active when people have to be picky and divide the forum into like 20,000 little places. i checked the misc stuff forum the other day and was baffled. there are like six recent posts in it!! How about this, let's have.

JJ2 Related
Non-JJ2 Related (misc. stuff)
Technical Stuff

and that's it! because the JCF doesn't get nearly enough posts. Like honestly, I don't even get on the jcf anymore because it's a big hassle to have to check every single forum and its posts. There doesn't have to be a separate forum for funny posts (comedy cafe), or for pop culture posts, discussion is discussion and this whole organization thing is killing the forums.

i just wanna get on, click JJ2 to talk about Jazz, and then click non-jj2 to read about the other stuff. which, nine times out of ten, is video games, ninja talking about sex and drugs, and ethical / political / intellectual conversations. but that's the jcf for you.

please agree with me.

EDIT:

Another thing! What's with moving people's posts? okay, so say I post something that should've gone in pop culture in the miscellaneous forum. First of all, grow up. Why do you have to move it? But second of all after you move it, it just says "MOVED" in big letters in the forum it was originally in, so it ends up being even MORE noticable, and looking more like spam when you move it. So what's the point? Not trying to be a jerk or anything but this is constructive criticism, like I think people don't post here anymore because they're sick of all this stuff. face it, it's 2010 and nobody sits and posts on forums all day, especially not when half the (-)(-)(-)(-) they post gets tampered with by administrators.

[Dermo]

when half the (-)(-)(-)(-) they post gets tampered with by administrators.

I disagree, we need some organization in the community. It's not inactive to the point of being able to close it up. And I hate hip hop and such, so I tend to skip over pop culture forum and read in the Jazz Related stuff. However, if it was compacted into a misc section, I wouldn't have a choice and it would get rather annoying, clicking on it to find one new post that's culture-related. I like the forum the way they are, organized. When you need a good laugh, ninja in the misc thread (was) the way to get it. When you needed some help, you click on technical, when you have rants like this *ahem* want to give feedback, this is the place. It all fits in. People just don't know how and where to post these days, that's what the real problem is. However, the above quote is 100% agreeable IMO

[Stijn]

when half the (-)(-)(-)(-) they post gets tampered with by administrators.

I'm fascinated by how this is apparently still how people see the forum, while that is really something of a few years ago. Very few posts are edited or deleted these days.

[HorvatM]

Like honestly, I don't even get on the jcf anymore because it's a big hassle to have to check every single forum and its posts.

Suggestion: subscribe with an RSS reader.

[Stijn]

You can also click "new posts" on top of the page.

[Dermo]

Hunter, those you pose a great idea, as you said:
Now what is strange is that many players just avoid visiting the forums and posting here. There is a lot of active people who either never come here or only lurk.

You're correct on that. Most lurkers, I feel, come here to see the latest news, because that's what's important. However, if the administrators were to link J2O to JCF, I think a lot of players would be disagreeing to that. "Oh, another forum I have to join. This isn't real like I thought it would be. I don't have time for this." *leaves*

If you get what I'm saying, I'm saying that J2O has a way larger fanbase than JCF. A lot of people don't want to register for the forum, or would never keep up with it, but they love J2O. Why force them? It would just cause more problems for the community if you ask me.

[Grytolle]

enable "About me" pages that show up on user profiles. Right now, one can customize her or herone's page, only selecting the colours and fonts. Why not make their (=for each user?) own page there? Of course, it's still possible for one to create an ERE page about oneself but then again, we're talking about making the boards more interesting.
8D sry I was "board"

[Stijn]

The JCF uses vBulletin, a forum system created by a third party. It's very versatile, but it does have its limits with regards to user profiles and such. Unfortunately we don't really have the time or resources to implement such functionality by ourselves.

The JCF and J2O's accounts can't be linked either for various reasons. It's two separate login systems that are pretty much impossible to integrate, and there's lots of people with a J2O account but no JCF account, or vice versa. It's not possible to automatically link those that have an account on both, and doing it all by hand is too time-consuming.

[Stijn]

Clan might make sense, and J2O username too. I think signatures are a better place for "currently working on" though. It's what they've been used for for ages.

[CrimiClown]

Premature burial would be the best option.

[KRSplat]

Are we still allowed to talk to its ghost on the Internet?

[Lark]

i dont know, it's all just too much effort. i wanna log onto a forum, see the new posts and exit. it's annoying to have to be an all day thing but i guess the forum can't be changed to make one dude happy.

because apparently i'm the only one who feels this way :P
but then again i've never been very organized and 9/10 people in this community are.

[Stijn]

i dont know, it's all just too much effort. i wanna log onto a forum, see the new posts and exit. it's annoying to have to be an all day thing but i guess the forum can't be changed to make one dude happy.
Problem is, I don't see how this isn't covered by the "New Posts" page.

[Obi1mcd]

I don't think the JCF is over-organized or anything. If the JCF is heading for 'certain death' (I'm not saying it is, mind you) it's because the game is kinda old. =b
Oh, and the 'currently working on' thing sounds cool.

[Grytolle]

I'm fascinated by how this is apparently still how people see the forum, while that is really something of a few years ago. Very few posts are edited or deleted these days.

It would have been hilarious if you had just closed the thread instead of posting this

[cooba]

FUN FACT: The JCF is not dying. Quite the opposite. (<s>Stijn? Come here!</s> Where's Stijn's php graph thing when you need it?)It would have been hilarious if you had just closed the thread instead of posting thisI would have done that <img src="http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/images/icons/icon14.gif" />Are we still allowed to talk to its ghost on the Internet?I guess we could set up an online Ouija board...

[Stijn]

FUN FACT: The JCF is not dying. Quite the opposite. (<s>Stijn? Come here!</s> Where's Stijn's php graph thing when you need it?)
I kind of lost the script to generate the image, but the amount of new posts per day has been stable for about a year and is even increasing slightly.

[Speeza]

The forum is fine how it is, I honestly don't see how you find it annoying to find new posts, only takes me a minute to find new posts. In fact this is one of the most easy forums to "drive through" as such.
The only thing I would love to see go is that blasted comedy cafe !

[Seren]

The only thing I would love to see go is that blasted comedy cafe !
I agree. There are no funny topics in this forum.

[cooba]

I kind of lost the script to generate the image, but the amount of new posts per day has been stable for about a year and is even increasing slightly.<img src="http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/brilliant.jpg" width="512" height="384" />

[Grytolle]

only takes me a minute to find new postsimpressive speed

[minmay]

Actually, I agree with Lark here. There are too many subforums. Personally, I'd merge Online Play and War Tavern with General Jazz Talk, and merge all four non-Jazz-related forums into one (but keep the forum games separated).
Having this many subforums was fine and probably even good five years ago when the community was all nice and lovely and active (and half the (-)(-)(-)(-) they posted got tampered with by administrators), but now it just slows me down.

Of course it's not a big deal or anything.

[Nonomu198]

No admin has the guts to temper with the War Tavern.

[Violet CLM]

The War Tavern goes back a looooong way. Anything that was so part of the community as to be in JJ3 one has to think twice before tampering with.

[minmay]

Well, I've always been one of those people who defies tradition in various, possibly offensive, ways.

[Grytolle]

Actually, I agree with Lark here. There are too many subforums. Personally, I'd merge Online Play and War Tavern with General Jazz Talk, and merge all four non-Jazz-related forums into one (but keep the forum games separated).
I don't want War Tavern polluting the only two really interesting forums ;/

[Stijn]

I merged Technical Help with General JJ2.

[Stijn]

No, it was in the category "Jazz Jackra<!>bbit Forums".

[Torkell]

I merged Technical Help with General JJ2.
I'm not sure that merging the two makes sense, as Technical Help got used for asking non-JJ2-related tech questions as well as JJ2-related ones.

[Stijn]

Then those were posted in the wrong forum.

[cooba]

What the heck is "Jazz Jackforum for philosophical discourses"?

EDIT: WT<!---->F

[Torkell]

Then those were posted in the wrong forum.
From Yahoo's cache (http://74.6.146.127/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=jazz2online.com%2Fjcf&rd=r1&u=www.jazz2online.com/jcf&d=aBJHy7ZfVCLq&icp=1&.intl=uk&sig=dQKPIfZDeYmBC69KKqT.2w--), the Technical Help forum description (emphasis not mine): "Problem that needs fixing? Post it here and we'll try to help! For Jazz Jackrabbit related and other sorts of technical help."

[Stijn]

I don't think this is quite the thing to make a poll about. It's been discussed within the staff before, and also within various earlier (public) topics about a new forum layout. I obviously kept the results of those discussions in mind when merging.

Lark is right in that the JCF does not get a very large amount of new posts per day. Very few of those were in the Technical Help forum. Almost all topics made in the past 6 months were about JJ2-related questions. Additionally several were about topics that also had threads about them in General JJ2 Talk, such as JJ2+. Given those facts there's simply not enough activity regarding Technical Help to warrant a separate forum, and it's better off in General Jazz2 Talk.

It is of course reversible, I made a backup before doing it, but unless you have new compelling arguments to do so I think it'll stay like this.

[Stijn]

What the heck is "Jazz Jackforum for philosophical discourses"?

EDIT: WT<!---->F
Side effect of a word filter, never noticed. Fixed now.

[Obi1mcd]

I merged Technical Help with General JJ2.
That was sudden.

Side effect of a word filter, never noticed. Fixed now.

Are you serious? I thought it was on purpose.

[CrimiClown]

Merge all forums and subforums, then merge all topics that start with the same letter.

[Coppertop]

I have very mixed feelings about moving the War Tavern. It's definitely not active any more, but it's a piece of JJ2 history and I think it should be left alone for the most part. If nothing else I'd keep it as an archive.

[KRSplat]

Why archive it? It's not implausible that someone may wish to share something any time in the future.

[Dermo]

ok so I went to search for that threaded started by Troglo in Technical Help... and it wasn't there.. Jerks. Seriously, this is making it way harder. Can you PLEASE revert it?

[Speeza]

ok so I went to search for that threaded started by Troglo in Technical Help... and it wasn't there.. Jerks. Seriously, this is making it way harder. Can you PLEASE revert it?

Agreed, It was a very helpful sub-forum. It needed be active to serve its purpose. Honestly this forum isn't broke and isn't hard to navigate through.
The forum doesn't look cluttered with it either, so why on earth some people wanted it merged is beyond me.

[CrimiClown]

Two words: Reverse democracy

[Coppertop]

Why archive it? It's not implausible that someone may wish to share something any time in the future.

I worded it wrong. I meant, if all else fails and we do truly start considering getting rid of it.

[Stijn]

Take a look at http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/forumdisplay.php?f=9

You'll see that:
- 12 of the 13 topics posted within the past 6 months were about a JJ game, and 3 of those were created within one week by the same user.
- The one topic not about JJ was not answered helpfully.
- The other 12 topics could've been in General JJ Talk as well, considering that similar topics have been posted there for a while without anyone complaining.

So I'm still convinced that there's considerable overlap between General Jazz Talk and Technical Help, to the point where posts made in the latter could also be made in the former without problems (though not the other way around). Given that, it makes sense to me to merge the forums, so the activity isn't spread too thin. I might've been too hasty though, and could return things to the previous situation now I've put the backup online. What do you think, given the data above and the possibility to judge the current situation of the forum by yourself?

I don't think doing anything with the War Tavern is a good idea for historical reasons, but I don't really have a particularly strong opinion about that. I think Coppertop's point of view should have considerable weight in this though, given her longtime dedication to the forum.

If Tech. Help is merged, you should do the same with Online Play, Furter Game Development and the War Tavern (which can become a sub-forum to General). Art can then be merged with Misc and Comedy Café closed due to lack of comedy.
A few of those merges would probably have been next on the list had this one worked out.

[cooba]

Mind saying what sort of a filter caused "Jazz Jackforum for philosophical discourses" to be displayed instead of "Jazz Jackrabbit Forums"?"rabbit forum" is offensive, apparently.

Perhaps bring back Tech Help as a subforum of General?

EDIT: A very pedantic request, but "Online play" should be "Online Play" instead.

[Stijn]

Well, you are right about it. Maybe I'm too attached to the forums they way they look and that's why I am against such a change. But a lower amount of forums doesn't mean more activity. And the tech. forum, if nothing else, invites people to post, telling them they could ask for any problem, not only issues that have something to do with Jazz. On the other side, if I recall correctly, since I joined the JCF, I have started two threads (one had something to do with the game) in Technical Help and got replies to neither... Yes, I myself am uncertain what is better. I still reckon merging the forums without asking for opinions first to be wrong. I don't see why we can't have a poll to help with the decision.
The goal isn't so much to increase activity as well as to concentrate it. One forum with 10 posts per day is better than 10 forums with one post per day, I think. Given its recent track record I don't think the forum did much of its job of inviting people to post about technical problems either.

Mind saying what sort of a filter caused "Jazz Jackforum for philosophical discourses" to be displayed instead of "Jazz Jackrabbit Forums"?
Well, obviously "rabbit forum" got filtered to "forum for philosophical discourse".

I think the best solution would be some sort of construct where Technical Help is a subforum of General Jazz Talk and its posts show up within the main forum, but not the other way around. vBulletin doesn't really support anything like that though. You could tag every thread with "technical help" but that's not a very elegant solution either.

[Merlyn]

I agree the forums are a little over-organized now. I would incorporate Online play into General, and have just one Miscellaneous forum instead of 4.

Don't touch the War Tavern, that would be sacrilege!

[Coppertop]

I also happen to agree that there are too many forums right now. I understand trying to separate the spam from the substance, but it may be overkill right now.

[Dermo]

How about we just keep Technical Help?

[cooba]

Thread tags are nearly completely transparent to the users. I figure it could be handled by thread icons, like the <a href="http://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1">Something Awful forums</a> (or the explosm forums, which blatantly copies SA), but that requires extra code and you'd have to tag every thread again.

Bringing back Tech Help and turning it into a subforum would be the simplest and cleanest solution. We could give Online Play a similar treatment as a matter of fact.

[Obi1mcd]

I noticed that you put Technical Help in a subforum. I think this works quite well, thank you.

[cooba]

<s>the merge sucks</s> Thanks Stijn.

[Speeza]

Perhaps you could add a small description saying (Technical Help here) or not.

[FQuist]

I'm not that fond of tradition, so I'd have the following proposal, echoing an earlier one by someone else, and based in part on the old forum changes thread:

- Archive the war tavern, to keep it pure. The most recent posts appear to have been spam. For the rest it gets a few posts every few months.
- BUT: Archive it as a subforum to General Jazz Talk, since it deserves a good place inside and not outside of the regular forum structure
- Then change the art forum to include stories & move the Guilty Gene topic to there

I value Coppertop's opinion on these proposals!

Then, further (thanks Cooba):
- Change the archives category into a forum so it takes up less space
- Move Comedy Cafe and all other defunct forums to the archives
OR
- Merge Comedy Cafe and forum games and name it "The Café"

One alternative to the current Technical Help construction would be to add something about technical help to the description of the current jazz talk forum.

One solution for Lark's problems would be finishing and giving out that secret admin tool for easy forum viewing...

/me goes back into hiding for another year. Bye!

[Nonomu198]

Merging the Café with a somewhat more serious forum sounds like a bad idea to me.

[FQuist]

Forum games is serious? Seriously?

[Nonomu198]

I didn't say that, I said it's somewhat more serious than the Café. Merging them will probably either eliminate the Café's abysmal jokes, or drag Forum Games down the manhole.

[Dermo]

Indeed, I second IconGuy on this. There's nothing wrong with the JCF as it is so I don't see why y'all feel the need to fix it. If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

Discuss.

[Grytolle]

Forum games disappearing wouldn't be that bad... :p

[Dermo]

Forum games disappearing wouldn't be that bad... :p

If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

Discussion closed.

[Stijn]

I'll check whether I still have that posts-per-day script around somewhere.

Activity doesn't really mean much, in fact, I have no idea what it really represents. Could as well mean lots of spambots are flocking to the JCF lately.

[Stijn]

http://www.jazz2online.com/junk/stats08112010.png

Average posts per day per week since the birth of the JCF.

[Speeza]

I'll check whether I still have that posts-per-day script around somewhere.

Activity doesn't really mean much, in fact, I have no idea what it really represents. Could as well mean lots of spambots are flocking to the JCF lately.

I think it mostly is spam bots sadly. Normally when I look at the current members on-line list there's at list 2 or more spam bots with the name jbjioo. Some of the spam bots even post now, aka the brilliant davidkaz and his family.

The graph upsets me, I'm not sure if that small bit of recent activity is to do with the spam bots.

[Stijn]

Oh wait, I should be clear. When I talked about not know what "activity" represents, I meant the "Active users" count displayed on the forum front page. The graph displays average posts per week, which should not be influenced by spambots, since we delete those posts and they're not counted.

(Except for Davidkaz, but I doubt he has much of an impact)

[Lithium]

A random question related to activity: it says most users ever online were online on January 29th,2005 and there was 549 of them. Does anyone have a picture of it and can you tell me the users that were online at the time? (If you don't have anything smarter to do.)