Some minor annoyances

[FireSworD]

Not sure if this deserves its own topic but I thought it appropriate since some things just bug me.

For instance:

SuperJazz states that a water shield would be more appropriate theme-wise than a lightning shield in EvilMikes latest level, because it's an island level with organic scenery. While I agree with most of his other points, this one makes me wonder because should that mean electroblasters don't belong in organic themed levels...or to be more extreme, why even use springs or pinball events in organic themed levels? (Garden Brawl used pinball events because they were useful and springs are used so why the heck not?). I was a little reluctant to add electroblasters in Medieval Skyscrapers in 2003, but I ended up using TNT anyway :P.

Another one that is bugging me right now isn't important at all, and not even completely related to jj2, but isn't CTF supposed to be a team based gametype? - The only advantages to ctf duels are things like recapturing and knowing your opponents position. Also, yes I am encouraging duels to be in battle more often.

[Superjazz]

My point with the shield thing wasn't generally that the whole electric set would be against the level theme. I was suggesting the water shield mainly because it's more powerful and useful in such an open level. If I wanted mike to follow the "theme standards" I would have suggested him to put freezers instead of toaster as well. But what would you need freezers for in such a level when there are no pits even? And just as I stated the issue was not a major one.

But I can see your point here, and that's where you're right. Somehow even when I heard the word 'electro blaster' a thousand times, I never considered it an 'electric' weapon myself. I don't know why is that. Also all the PUs and shields in general are mechanical/electric objects that just have to be dealt with as they are. I could for example prefer gun crates over gun barrels in an 'organic themed' level because I have a chance to choose. But since there are no alternates for PowerUps in less mechanical form, I just have to place them without hesitation into levels or else there shouldn't be any Power Ups at all. I hope you get my point as well. :P

[Violet CLM]

I feel that more thematizing work goes into single-player levels than for multiplayer ones... in single-player the level is often part of a pack, so there are opportunities for the player to get/have gotten thematically suspect weapons in other levels instead, and people usually choose between crates or barrels depending on how civilized the level/tileset theme is, whereas in multiplayer most people probably don't know how to get a generating crate to work well. There's also a strong tradition behind every multiplayer level having a few powerups.

[minmay]

It's a game about Technicolor rabbits shooting at turtles. Levels for it do not need to make sense.

[EvilMike]

Interesting thread. First I'm going to comment on the shield in my level, since FS and SJ have both discussed it. I want to illustrate why, and how much gameplay influences this sort of thing, rather than theme.

I considered using a water shield in my level, since indeed, it would be theme-appropriate. However, gameplay considerations overruled thematic ones. The main question is this: why use a shield at all? There can be three answers: (a) in order to give players a powerful weapon, which would mean a water shield is the best choice, (b) in order to give players a powerful defense, which makes fire or plasma the best choice, and (c) for both reasons, which again makes a water shield ideal.

In my level, the shield mainly serves a defensive purpose, hence plasma (the weapon is nice too, but you are still better off spamming bouncers or RFs if you want to kill things). You might notice that the bases in my level are very easy to defend. And while it is unlikely for a team to be this organized, it is possible to almost "lock down" your own base (you need at least two players devoted to defense for this to work, strategically positioned). What the shield does is it allows you to run past any defense, and hopefully allow your teammates to follow - the 40 second timer is long enough to allow that. This gameplay function can sort of be compared to ubercharges work in TF2.

And while a water shield would have also worked defensively, I feel it would have been too powerful offensively, especially in the middle area where the layout is very open. Players would be encouraged to grab it simply because it is the best weapon in the game. I wanted to narrow the use a bit, and actually make players think of using it as more of a tool than as a weapon (and encourage players to use it in the bases rather than in the middle area). In a way, it's a bit psychological (a fire shield would work even better, but the level has water). It's all about guiding the player subconsciously, sort of like how ammo pickups can be used to draw the player along certain routes.

In retrospect, the 3 minute respawn time on it might be a bit too long for what I am trying to accomplish; I'm considering lowering it to around 160 seconds.

Of course there's still room for disagreement here, but my point is this: even in minor decisions like what kind of shield to use, a lot of thought and theory can go into the decision. Changing something for thematic reasons (or even for reasons like "because it's more powerful") can actually have a much bigger impact than it seems. Gameplay should always be considered first.

This is also why my level has pepper spray but no electro blasters. There really aren't very many walls you'd want to shoot through, and for the ones that can be, bouncers are good enough. On the other hand, there are a lot of places where pepper spray can be used to "snipe" players (RF missiles have good speed, but actually have poor range in comparison). Still not an excellent weapon, but it has its place in a level like this.

Anyway I got a little sidetracked there, but get the point.


Another one that is bugging me right now isn't important at all, and not even completely related to jj2, but isn't CTF supposed to be a team based gametype? - The only advantages to ctf duels are things like recapturing and knowing your opponents position. Also, yes I am encouraging duels to be in battle more often.
CTF duels are played because good CTF levels are more common than good battle levels, and a lot of people (including me) prefer JJ2 with 3 hearts rather than 5 (and there aren't any battle levels designed for 3h). Also having bases changes the dynamic quite a bit since you often know exactly what your opponent is heading for (CTF has more goals than just killing your opponent). CTF also tends to play a lot faster than battle. It's really just a matter of preference. As a side note, 1vs1 CTF does exist in a few other games. I remember it being present in Quake 3, at least.


Disclaimer: this post only applies to MP levels. My opinions on singleplayer are pretty much the opposite.

[Grytolle]

Disclaimer: this post only applies to MP levels. My opinions on singleplayer are pretty much the opposite.
I tried to negate the sentences above the disclaimer to access your sp-wisdom but I didn't get anywhere :(

If you can lock your base down with two players, wouldn't waiting 2 2/3-3 minutes be enough time to rush 5 in a 3v3 game?

[Superjazz]

I feel that more thematizing work goes into single-player levels than for multiplayer ones... in single-player the level is often part of a pack, so there are opportunities for the player to get/have gotten thematically suspect weapons in other levels instead, and people usually choose between crates or barrels depending on how civilized the level/tileset theme is, whereas in multiplayer most people probably don't know how to get a generating crate to work well. There's also a strong tradition behind every multiplayer level having a few powerups.

You're right here. I usually pay more attention to this especially with my own SP-levels, but the shield-thing caught my attention with this specific MP-level somehow.

[Seren]

You're right here. I usually pay more attention to this especially with my own SP-levels, but the shield-thing caught my attention with this specific MP-level somehow.
When a level has a lot of atmosphere, everything that doesn't fit it can easily catch attention, so I think the fact you noticed such a feel-breaking detail is quite an advantage of the level.

[Obi1mcd]

In terms of theme, I can never decide wether I want the items to look like they go with the tileset, or wether they stand out. Making it surreal, so you know it's something special that you do something with, has it's advantages from my point of view. Then again, if they're made to look the same style as the tileset they can fit in well.
Pretty much what minmay said.