Another objection to the reputation system

[Newspaz]

Most of you probably think it's time to let this debate end. But tonight I "discovered" another reason why I dislike this system. I decided to be kind enough to share it with you, seeing as I recall everyone was invited to reopen the discussion when he or she had something useful to add.

Tonight I felt like negrepping one of the administrators. But I decided against it. You might ask why. Well, it is for the simple reason that the administrators are able to see who negrepped or prorepped them. I thought it would be safer not to do this, seeing as some of the administrators on this forum seem to suffer from what I'd like to call erratic behaviour from time to time. I'm not saying I'm always at my best, but at least I'm not able to see who negrepped me.

My discomfort with the system is increased because I feel I'm not on good terms with some administrators. Negrepping them might spring of endless discussion in the form of private messaging, emails or instant messaging. This is something I am just not waiting for.

I doubt the administrators would go to extreme measures like banning someone over a couple of negreps though. On the other hand I don't think they'd just let the opportunity to research some of their negreps go by either. How many negreps does your average administrator get anyway? Or do the administrators always display perfect behaviour?

Now let’s see what administrators think about questioning authority on this forum.

[Obi1mcd]

If there was any particular reason to negrep an admin, I don't see why I'd decide against it. As admins, they are supposed to be responsible and all that.

[Stijn]

Now let’s see what administrators think about questioning authority on this forum.
I am absolutely fine with that, as long as it's not in a Dermo-esque way where you keep saying I or another administrator am being a bad administrator without saying why (not saying you're doing this).

I've gotten 5 negative reputation ratings so far. I can see who gave them, but I don't think that really influences me much. Rather than see it as something personal I try to take it as feedback on my posts, though admittedly all those ratings apart from the most recent one seem not to be very serious.

[FQuist]

I'd say, why not just negrep an admin next time you feel compelled to and see what happens. Maybe you'll get into a discussion (which you can easily ignore/block) and you'll discover we're not to be trusted (something that you seem to think already), maybe you won't and you'll discover your point is moot. It is easy to sow distrust, but nicer to present fact.

Regarding questioning authority on this forum, I think the admins have a fine track record of allowing this and there is no reason to think otherwise. Not sure why you would mention it.

[Newspaz]

I would just like to be able to criticise the administrators anonymously like I can with other members. I think they sometimes deserve it. You might want to consider this thread my negrep for the administrators. Sadly, it's not anonymous.

This entire debate is one I don't want to continue. But I do it because I do believe the system is flawed.

[Seren]

Making reps possible to see only for other admins (than the one who got rep) should work. I guess it'd need some vBulletin surgery fun though, wouldn't it? Btw, I'd probably feel some discomfort negrepping admins too. Never seen such a need, as I hardly ever even negrep anyone and the admins seem to be doing a good work, but I can understand Newspaz's point of view.

[Stijn]

I would just like to be able to criticise the administrators anonymously like I can with other members. I think they sometimes deserve it. You might want to consider this thread my negrep for the administrators. Sadly, it's not anonymous.

For purposes of moderating (and yes, experience proves this is necessary, sadly) reputation ratings will not be made anonymous.

If you really feel a pressing need to criticize the administrators anonymously, register an anonymous e-mail account and e-mail them from there, or something. But, as said, I see no reason why you wouldn't just speak your mind here. We don't bite.

This seems to be more of a "the administration is doing a bad job but I don't want to speak out about it because of [x]" thing than feedback on the reputation system.

[Newspaz]

That is only partly true. It also simply is unfair to other members that administrators can get a high reputation without having as much chance of being negrepped. I would like to use the system that is in place for it but I consider it inadequate in this case. For the simple fact that administrators have complete control over it and can use it to monitor the complaints made towards them. This could result in administrators becoming biased.

On a side note: I do think the administration does a poor job (but I have always thought that, it's just gotten a bit worse lately). I think I've made that clear, that is why I would like to use the system.

I'm considering to make an entirely separate thread so we can discuss the level of administration.

[Stijn]

That is only partly true. It also simply is unfair to other members that administrators can get such a high reputation without having as much chance of being negrepped. I would like to use the system that is in place for it but I consider it inadequate in this case. For the simple fact that administrators have complete control over it and can use it in an entirely different way that the average user can.
There is only a <em>perceived</em> difference in that you apparently fear that negrepping me will have negative consequences. As far as I'm concerned, that is not the case, and you (and everyone else who wishes to do so) can negrep me without retaliation. Seriously, what am I gonna do? Ban you? Rate your posts negatively in turn? Really, no, I like to think I'm above such things. If you don't believe me, I can't do much about that.

As said, there's good reasons for administrators being able to see who rated what, so that is not going to change, though that does mean we have more info than ordinary users. But then again that applies to pretty much every feature of these forums.

I'm considering to make an entirely separate thread so we can discuss the level of administration.
Please do.

[Newspaz]

I will.

[Torkell]

No objection to being negrepped here (and indeed I have received 5 negreps, all for good reasons).

[Nonomu198]

Pffft you shouldn't fear admins. As long as you don't act like a super jerk they won't ban you. Heck, Rep is here again. Also Dermo was until he had an extreme rage attack.
The system is ok, the fear of admins is what's rotten if you ask me. See, unlike in most other forums, they make up like 50% of the active forum members. Fearing 50% of the posters is bad atmosphere.

Also, Torkell, 5 negreps? That's it? You should look at my rep. 50% of it is gray (what can I say, negrepped people love me) and the rest is 25-25 of good and bad rep. I think most of it is for bad reasons.

[Obi1mcd]

50%? That's a bit of an exaggeration, if you ask me.

[CrimiClown]

http://chaos.foxmage.com/CrimiClown/pwobjection.png

Why not negrep admins? They're just regular users like us. The only difference is that they have been given the trust to moderate with responsibility. If you feel that trust is misused, I don't see why you shouldn't negrep.

I believe I negrepped an admin at some point, and at that time I probably thought I had a good reason to do so.

[FQuist]

I'm also not bothered by negreps that are not just silly attacks or ad hominems (and those I don't do anything with). If someone gives a good reason, fine. I prefer feedback when it's specified and concrete, so if there is any, sure. Because then I can improve. It bothers me less than when people (like Dermo or Newspaz) keep posting about unspecified flaws in the administration without explaining themselves to any usable extent, since it allows us no way to improve and just makes sure the boards have a foul mood.

So yeah, I'm fine with a separate thread for specifying problems.

[Toni]

Wait, that means that I MUST write a proper comment if I want negrep admins? Ehh, is that rule the same for the regular users as I am? If so, check my userpanel if possible. You will see about 10 negreps with stupid reasons. For example, someone negrepped me because I suggested to calculate ClanWars in JJ2WC for JJ.net, to make JJ.net more active in ClanWars. The reason was ";]". It's only one example and as I said there are a lot of more. If you want to keep 'rule for comments' only for admins, it will not be good.

Please don't understand me like I am against you [admins] or someone else. I am just telling the truth, and I don't want from you to delete that negrep.

[Stijn]

Yeah, you have to write a comment for negative reputations regardless of the user.

[FQuist]

Toni: you can do anything you want. If you want to negrep me because of "oh lulz :D:D:D" feel free to do so. There's no consequence of any kind. It's slightly annoying, but it would probably be to most.

[Obi1mcd]

Wait, that means that I MUST write a proper comment if I want negrep admins? Ehh, is that rule the same for the regular users as I am? If so, check my userpanel if possible. You will see about 10 negreps with stupid reasons. For example, someone negrepped me because I suggested to calculate ClanWars in JJ2WC for JJ.net, to make JJ.net more active in ClanWars. The reason was ";]". It's only one example and as I said there are a lot of more. If you want to keep 'rule for comments' only for admins, it will not be good.

Please don't understand me like I am against you [admins] or someone else. I am just telling the truth, and I don't want from you to delete that negrep.

I got one that says 'asdf'. That's it. Reputation should be used to give constructive criticism, if you ask me. Random negative comments are useless, unless the person just wants to annoy someone. However, I'm not complaining about the reputation system in general, just some of the idiots using it.

[Toni]

I want to be clear. I don't like when someone negrep me with "ajfahf" comment. Please tell me what's wrong in that post and I'll try to fix that problem.

@Fquist: No, I will not negrep you unless I have a good reason to do it. And of course I will write a proper reason.

[Nonomu198]

Hey, if you don't like a rep, don't blame the system. In fact, I think it can be credited as quite the barrier for flamewars. People just negrep instead of starting them, which is a good thing if you don't like flamewars.

50%? That's a bit of an exaggeration, if you ask me.

Maybe it's 40-30-30... still lots.

[Stijn]

Only I and Torkell are actively posting on these forums, which is two administrators.

Out of how many users? Dunno.

[Obi1mcd]

866, going by the bar at the bottom. :D

[FQuist]

Ironically, I have not gotten as much negative reputation for any thread as this one.

[Seren]

Ironically, I have not gotten as much negative reputation for any thread as this one.
Just out of curiosity, how much of it says "oh lulz :D:D:D"?

[FQuist]

One of them!

[Lithium]

gg.

[minmay]

I have a somewhat related question about the reputation system, directed at the administrators: after its introduction, have you noticed a decrease in the number of reported posts? In other words, do people use the negative reputation button instead of the report post button?

[Jett]

Also, it seems to me that people will just give people negative reputation as an excuse for flaming outside of public moderation. This may be what Gus was getting at in the threads he started. That the reputation feature is a way that people can flame each other with anonymity and without moderation.

[Stijn]

I do occasionally check reputation comments and usually remove those that are just insults and the like. Though do feel free to send me a PM if you think a reputation rating is unjust.

[Newspaz]

This thread is irrevelant about the rep system itself, it's an irrational thread about negrepping admins. That asides, I'm not a big fan of the rep system itself, with anonymity, if you feel you don't get the reason, you can't reply back. Of course, then there are the people who just rep for trolling, bias and for no reason whatsoever (yes, both negative and postive). Reverse psychology sure skews it. I don't always know what I'm posting is right or not, which is especially why I dislike it. In a way, it's indirectly justifying people with social anxiety.

TL ;DR I don't feel very comfortable posting here.

I found out the solution to the negrep system is just to minimize posting on the JCF all together. I posted like six times last year. (yet I somehow still managed to get negrepped once).

[Stijn]

Changes! See http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/announcement.php?f=14

[Nonomu198]

r.i.p. beaut

[Newspaz]

Credit where credit is due... These changes are very good. Thumbs up.