LMAP

[Ktos.]

I was thinking about this since DJazz had finished his WebJCS, and making one level project is no longer a problem. So why shouldn't we try to make a whole pack? Let's make a pack!

Since I'm not sure what would you like to make, I'd prefer to make an SP. There isn't much of it at JJ2, but while making a collaborative project like that it can be either very nice piece of work, or some kind of average single player maps, but to be honest, I think that it will be pretty fun even to make it. Original, with nice eyecandy and gameplay because of amount of people making levels.

If anyone's interested, post here. The first thing we should decide to do is the storyline I think. If you think that it won't work... Well, then I'll probably give up, but still I think that it's a nice idea. It should be mostly about fun with making the level, shouldn't it?

WebJCS servers:

http://djazz.mine.nu:8011
http://djazz.mine.nu:8012
http://djazz.mine.nu:8013
http://djazz.mine.nu:8014
http://djazz.mine.nu:8015
http://djazz.mine.nu:8016
http://djazz.mine.nu:8017
http://djazz.mine.nu:8018
http://djazz.mine.nu:8019
http://djazz.mine.nu:8020

To get the passwords PM/MSN Djazz.

[PurpleJazz]

Sounds like a cool idea ;) I'm up for it.

[Jgke]

Yes, most certainly. <s>XLM only</s>

[FireSworD]

I've always wanted to do an alternate jj2. In other words, a scenario where Devan Shell won in jj1. It's still a typical jj storyline, but we can still make it deeper/more interesting. Thoughts?

[DoubleGJ]

Last time something like this was tried, it didn't go too well. (http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showthread.php?t=15414) But perhaps this time around, with WebJCS, the new hot tool, things will be different. I'm on the back porch for now guys, let me see how this idea comes along and if it will be going somewhere then I might just join in for a bit.

[Zerg]

I would join, but first I should try webJCS :P

[Obi1mcd]

How exactly do you think the project should work? Will multiple people work on the same level at the same time, or will everybody do a different one? I'm guessing the former, since the latter has been tried before and hasn't worked often.

[minmay]

was extremely disappointed upon learning this did not stand for "let's make a palette"

[Ktos.]

Obi, I think that probably around 2-3 levels will be host at one time, everyone would be able to edit them.

FS, I like that idea. We would have to think about the consequences of Devan's victory in the first JJ. Rebellion against the turtles? Well something like that was already in Devres. Maybe Jazz wanting vengeance after he couldn't save Eva?

We also need to find someone who could host... Zeal?

If you have got different ideas for the story, it would be appreciated.

[FireSworD]

Eva dies?

[EvilMike]

All I really remember about the jj1 plot now is that devan shell some kind of terroist leader (he's called a terrorist in one of the episode text screens).

If you want to make a plot where he "wins" then I think you should have it so he controls carrotus and the goal is to retake it from him. Maybe you can travel to different parts of the planet and kill the boss or whatever to "free" that region. Because as everyone knows, the best way to solve problems is by killing the badguys. You could also involve other planets in a story like this but it's probably easier to just stick to one... large projects fail easily.

[cooba]

The main plot point of JJ1 are the battleships intent on destroying Carrotus. Hence, Devan winning means Carrotus is now an enslaved ball of ash. EM's idea of reclaiming Carrotus is good, and you can adapt JJ1's "shoot a devan sign to win" style of exiting to tie it together.

Also, the community episode failed because of the "wait for your turn" crap and no real collaboration involved. This should be averted.

[Ktos.]

FS, probably not because overall its a game for children, but whatever, if you want. I'd like to see more ideas anyway.

EM, that could be nice. The first map could be about escaping carrotus and then leading last of the free rabbit planets for the rebellion or what.

Cooba, this time it is going to be possibile to edit it by everyone. If someone wants to add something, then he just do that. That's why I decided to make this thread.

[cooba]

More thoughts: you could take the "alternate JJ2" idea further, and make the progression open ended instead of linear. The levels would be connected by a hub, and you'd need to finish them all (in any order) to get to the final level. If you're going with the reclaiming Carrotus idea, you could even go with TDI/FSP style gameplay where you approach the goals in any order you like.

[FireSworD]

FS, probably not because overall its a game for children, but whatever, if you want. I'd like to see more ideas anyway.

Then hint that she's dead and older players will pick it up.

Btw, it is a family oriented game, but I must remind you that there are smoking caterpillars, hell/death themed levels (inferno, damnation), and losing in the game most likely means...dying? - Oh, and Spaz eats more than dopefish (one of his idle animations).

[EvilMike]

FS, probably not because overall its a game for children, but whatever, if you want. I'd like to see more ideas anyway.

EM, that could be nice. The first map could be about escaping carrotus and then leading last of the free rabbit planets for the rebellion or what.

Cooba, this time it is going to be possibile to edit it by everyone. If someone wants to add something, then he just do that. That's why I decided to make this thread.

IMO keep it a bit less "ordered" than this. Just have a bunch of people make levels in different settings, and then once there's enough content, stitch them together with a plot. Possibly add a couple of short levels to "bridge" different sections, to make things coherent. You could also achieve this with a "hub" concept.

This is largely what I did with devres and it worked fine (even ep5 was literally just me going "this type of level would be cool" and then coming up with a story that allows all of those levels to be used, and ep1 and 2 were cobbled together from an old unrelated project's levels).

I think this route is ideal for a project with multiple people, because it won't fail if one person fails to deliver something.

The story idea I posted in this thread is specifically meant to be doable as a "guideline", with the more complex aspects being added after the levels are mostly done.

[Ktos.]

Well, maybe that's right. We should start to make the levels then. Any ideas who should host webjcs server? I can't.
Also, FS, for some reason that reminds me of Earthworm Jim, lol.

So the story is: Devan won in the first JJ and he captured Carrotus. Jazz decides to fight with him to get the revenge for killing Eva or just capturing Carrotus(Eva doesn't have to die, she might just dissapear which could be a reason to make next episode if anyone cares). He escapes Carrotus and then he went to a big spaceship/space station which is the hub. Of course we can start with the hub since beggining. Also, after finishing the hub levels we could make some maps that needs to be finished step by step. For now thats all, not so bad I think.

...so, maybe the first level which we are going to make is the hub? To be honest I have no idea how we are going to make level like that, different start zones(and trigger zones under it) after finishing a level can work, but how are we going to force this to remember which levels have already been played? I haven't tried options for SP that were added in plus, things like multiple exit areas etc., so I'm not really sure if that can do something to make this work.

[Obi1mcd]

Well, a hub shouldn't be too hard. We can either use trigger zones or coins to set which levels have been played and which haven't. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to make one that works, regardless of the fact that I've never managed to get around to actually making one.

[cooba]

Suppose you could have the player collect a new ammo type every level, and require all of them to destroy the barrier between the hub and the final level.

Also, I think it would be more interesting to keep it on Carrotus because you don't need to ever use the Carrotus tileset itself. (The reason there are no carrots is because Devan is evil and destroyed them all.)

[Obi1mcd]

The downside to giving ammo as a way to get to the last area is that the players might use the ammo in the process. You could get a practically identical result by having a single coin under the next-level event, and requiring X coins to warp to the final level. I'm pretty sure that coins on the hub level are saved, as long as you use secret exits.

[cooba]

You wouldn't be able to use regular coinwarps or to make FSP like levels.

[Obi1mcd]

It only means you won't be able to use coinwarps in the hub. If I've got it right, you can still use coinwarps in other levels, and it will still save your coin count when you get back. Could be wrong, mind you, but I think that's how it works. Gah, indecisiveness.

EDIT:
Okay, checked with JCS, and coins do not work. Triggers seem to, on the other hand. So perhaps the system's structure could be something along the lines of this:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ipb0o67kcrfynm3

[Violet CLM]

He escapes Carrotus and then he went to a big spaceship/space station which is the hub.
May I suggest Carrotopolis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ObS4msilLw&feature=player_detailpage#t=25s)?

Also, I think it would be more interesting to keep it on Carrotus because you don't need to ever use the Carrotus tileset itself. (The reason there are no carrots is because Devan is evil and destroyed them all.)
The Carrotus tileset is specifically the <em>palace gardens</em> on Carrotus; it was never supposed to be what the entire planet looks like. The JJ3 map offers lots more possibilities for other on-planet locales.

[Ktos.]

I guess that we can put everything in Carrotus, indeed. I wanted to use Top3 mostly because of the letters included into the tileset.

The hub could be something like a room in the Carrotpolis then, but for some reason I think that if the whole planet is overrun with turtles then space station is a bit more suitable for a main base of the rebellion. Or there can be two hubs, one that is on the surface with first series of quests, second on the space station with the second.


... that reminds me of KotOR.

[Obi1mcd]

Two hubs would make things even more complicated, since using 1 hub means you need to go back there every single level. A second hub would be basically impossible if we want to 'save' the player's progress.

[EvilMike]

I have some opinions re: a hub concept. I'm not planning on making any levels here, so this is just advice.

First, use only one hub (or at least, don't add an extra one unless it's absolutely necessary). This is important, moreso for organization and gameplay than for technical reasons.

Second, don't make the hub at the start of the project. Make it last. Just have a vague idea - there are some good ones in this thread already. Just say "ok, our levels will be connected via this space station/city hub level" and then focus all efforts on the actual *main* levels.

Once the main levels are done, THEN make the hub level to connect them all. The fact is, not everyone will finish their levels. In fact, in an open project like this, I'd say you will be lucky if half the people finish their levels. Thus, you make the hub based around what is actually done and NOT what might be finished. Really, it should be one of the last levels made!

It's also important to note, _designing_ a hub level is one of the hardest things to do in jcs! In The Fortress of Ruin I used a sort of hub level (devan's fortress), although the pack was linear. But still, I had to design a level in mind that would be revisited continuously, open up gradually as you revisit, be open ended, and not fall apart into an unplayable mess. The only way I was able to design this level was to know, before even starting it, exactly how many levels it would connect to, how it would connect to them, and what those levels were.

[Ktos.]

There isn't anything like "you do this level, you do that one using this or that tileset", actually as I said, I rather wanted people to use WebJCS for that, so everyone could edit it easily. But yeah, it's probably better for starting to make other levels.
I'm still not sure with what should we start though. I'm used to make levels in a different way so I have no idea.

[Obi1mcd]

Well, we might as well pick a few tilesets and find out who can host some levels. Is anyone out there willing to host for a while?

[Ktos.]

Maybe let's ask DJazz or DZ? DJazz is hosting some levels at WebJCS anyway so he might want to do it.

[cooba]

There isn't anything like "you do this level, you do that one using this or that tileset", actually as I said, I rather wanted people to use WebJCS for that, so everyone could edit it easily.It seems to me you should just make a bunch of levels and release them together (http://www.jazz2online.com/downloads/1229/the-episode/) instead of trying to make a devres-like epic.

Either way I can help out once this gets started :H

[Obi1mcd]

Yeah, agreed with cooba, the levels should be made before we worry too much about the story.

[cooba]

Here's something that may be helpful: http://chaos.foxmage.com/cooba/hehe.zip

I tried to make a SP in a day for Halloween but didn't manage to finish (or get anywhere close to that). It's sorta open and exploration based. <a href="http://dbsoundworks.bandcamp.com/track/sacrificial-2">This</a> is supposed to be the music.

[djazz]

Maybe let's ask DJazz or DZ? DJazz is hosting some levels at WebJCS anyway so he might want to do it.
Private passworded servers and a serverlist are still to come, but I have set up <s>TEN</s> ELEVEN individual WebJCS collaboration servers:
http://djazz.mine.nu:8010
http://djazz.mine.nu:8011
http://djazz.mine.nu:8012
http://djazz.mine.nu:8013
http://djazz.mine.nu:8014
http://djazz.mine.nu:8015
http://djazz.mine.nu:8016
http://djazz.mine.nu:8017
http://djazz.mine.nu:8018
http://djazz.mine.nu:8019
http://djazz.mine.nu:8020

Note that the version hosted is always the latest (except the unstable stuff, like textured bg), it's not the same as the one on J2O.

I will soon release a new version!
Merry Christmas!

[Sean]

I have set up TEN individual WebJCS collaboration servers

*cough*ELEVEN*cough*

[djazz]

OOoops yes eleven XD

[Ktos.]

After I though about it, can't we make it a bit more... aimed? I'm not sure if we exactly know what we want to do. To be honest, I'm not even sure if that hub idea is good after I've been thinking about it. I think that it should be something specified, what we are exactly going to do because in other way it's really leading to nowhere. There is story already, and it's ok, but doing something like "let's make few random levels" isn't the best idea imo. The hub can stay... If it really has to, but first three levels should be:
-Intro, whole story etc.
-First level where you escape Carrotus
-Second level which will be that damn hub, or second level which will be some place to which you escaped, like big space station/suburbs of the destroyed carrotus city, something like that.
I don't think that it will work otherwise. But whatever, we can try, anyway that's also bad that we can't keep off people who didn't even read this thread from editing the levels.

[cooba]

doing something like "let's make few random levels" isn't the best idea imo.Yes it is, fuck stories.

Every SP pack in the past several years has cram a hackneyed storyline in just to ape EvilMike. I think we should do something fresh.

[FireSworD]

Let's just have a simple, yet interesting story.

Also, would be nice to have someone work with the dialogue, and I really mean believable dialogue, so it doesn't feel forced.

We really should lay out all of the rules, worlds, pasts etc of the jj2 world, then work within that.

[PurpleJazz]

If we do opt for bothering with a story, I think we should try to make something quite light-hearted. Mature, deep stories don't really have a place in JJ2 in my opinion. Perhaps we could even make something involving community members as characters? I do think even simple story lines bring levels to life somewhat.

[Ktos.]

I think we should do something fresh.

By "fresh" you mean "lets make it random levels which you play without any real reason"? For now I think that current story is good enough, but idea of making random levels really pisses me off. Story doesn't have to be epic, I still think that even the first level of "destroyed carrotus overwhelmed by turtles" could use normal carrotus tileset, not some "destroyedcarrotuseditbykasiapl.j2t" to make it look epic.

[cooba]

By "fresh" you mean "lets make it random levels which you play without any real reason"?No, I mean memorable classics like:
http://www.jazz2online.com/downloads/2383/energized-action/
http://www.jazz2online.com/downloads/2258/the-nothing-in-particular-pack-nip/
http://www.jazz2online.com/downloads/1201/singleplayer-time/
http://www.jazz2online.com/downloads/1229/the-episode/
http://www.jazz2online.com/downloads/4361/a-generic-single-player-level/
http://www.jazz2online.com/downloads/3847/the-sancitity-of-sun-and-moon/
http://www.jazz2online.com/downloads/44/5-alive/
http://www.jazz2online.com/downloads/391/night-world/If we do opt for bothering with a story, I think we should try to make something quite light-hearted. Mature, deep stories don't really have a place in JJ2 in my opinion.I'd be down for this. No involved rebellion stories with "believable dialogue" (lol) please.

[Ktos.]

Actually, I feel much better when there is story in the level, but I'll check those later.

http://www.speedyshare.com/file/2VqVT/Hub-Level.zip

Won't work via "save and run". Ignore that "awesome additional quest", "power ups" and collapsing scenery at the end of levels thing, I tried to make some achievement system but it didn't work. Anyway, this is an example of hub level. That solves every of our hub problems I think. JJ2+ is necessary.

[cooba]

That's great, Ktoś.

Now let's get to JCSing ;)

[Ktos.]

Haha yeah, to be honest I was annoyed mostly because that hub thing, overall it's nice idea but I though that it will only cause problems to jj2. I will try to get those achievements to work anyway, and if not, then I've got another idea.

What do you think about idea of getting ammo ONLY at the hub level before you go on the mission? You know, something like few ammo crates locked up by triggers which unlocks after you finish one mission. That would be interesting for gameplay. Then, while playing normal levels you could only aquire things like fast fire, gems, carrots. Of course ocassionally we can add some ammo boxes("wait there, we will get you some ammo from our space station!" and then ammo box falls down from the sky).

[FireSworD]

No involved rebellion stories with "believable dialogue" (lol) please.

Alright, you guys can kiss my involvement with this project goodbye.

Good luck guys.

[Ktos.]

Uh I'd prefer you to work with us about this FS. It's only Cooba who for some reason don't want any story in sp(and that is far more overused idea, sp with story is just more interesting and dialogues are necessary in my opinion). It doesn't have to be about rebellion too, but why not. Only because Evil Mike made single player pack then we cant use rebellion idea because HE USED IT WE CANT ITS OVERUSED. Maybe it is, but also what else could happen after Devan's win at first JJ?

Actually we don't have to argue about that for now, let's try to make first level at least. For now with "believable dialogues" and "stories" since nobody has got better idea than "lets not make story lol".

What tileset should we use for "Carrotus Escape"(or however it is going to be called)? I think the second level will be hub, so for now I think we can focus on the first one.

[cooba]

Alright, you guys can kiss my involvement with this project goodbye.You couldn't make another One Spot rehash in SP anyway, so what's the deal?

[FireSworD]

You're a child.

[Violet CLM]

We really should lay out all of the rules, worlds, pasts etc of the jj2 world, then work within that.
Not completely sure I know what you mean by "pasts" -- the times visited in the Flashback episode, I guess? -- but otherwise I'm your man. I've got resources most of you probably don't know exist.

[Ktos.]

Hm, the first one is definitely going to be carrotus anyway.

Noone answered to my ammo idea : (. Maybe one exception of that ammo thing would be first and last levels.

[djazz]

I have put passwords on ten servers (8011 to 8020).
Let the building begin!

PM/MSN me about server passwords.

[Grytolle]

This is why I don't give a shit when certain community members say jj2 players take what they do too seriously.