Looking for a little advice

[ColdMetal]

Hello everyone,

I'm starting work on a level using the Castle 2 Night tileset (the one edited from the original Castle tilesets by BlurredD, according to the note at the bottom of the tileset in JCS), and I'm looking for a little advice.

What I'm seeking to do here is create a single player level with a "ruined" atmosphere to it, as if the middle of the level (from the top to almost the bottom, including backround layer) collapsed and the rest of the ruins were left in disrepair, along with water beginning to seep through the foundations (therefore having a water layer throughout the bottom of the level). What I have in mind is a level with at least half the space of the X axis also present on the Y axis, and requiring the player to move through a U shape through most of the level to get around the collapsed portion, as well as a not-so-conventional boss fight at the end.

Any ideas? I have the mechanical aspect of the level pretty well figured out, but what would be best in regards to the eyecandy and decoration aspects is not so clear to me. Those will really set the atmosphere, so I want to get them just right.

[Sean]

The Castle tileset (original and edited) isn't very conducive for a ruined atmosphere, due to the orderly nature of the blocks in the tileset. If you'd like the get the atmosphere right, you might want to consider switching tilesets to something more specialized for it. I can't think of ruined castle type tilesets off the top of my head, so you might have to do a little digging.

[ColdMetal]

Now that you mention it, I have to agree with you in regards to the Castle tilesets. They do not have the scenery which captures the atmosphere I am looking for, such as moss and weathered stone.

I'm thinking a tileset with grey hued stone and overgrown vegetation would be ideal, as well as having a backround showing it to be under the surface (rays of light slipping through cracks of the ruined ceiling above) or having a dark sky suggesting incoming rain. Any ideas as to other tilesets which might possess some of these characteristics?

EDIT: While I have still not found the ideal tileset I have in mind, The Fortress of Forgotten Souls (http://www.jazz2online.com/downloads/4986/the-fortress-of-forgotten-souls/) seems not so bad, although I am uncertain if it will suit my needs well enough. What do you all think?

[Violet CLM]

Part of the conceit of Rage of Aquarius is being a grayer and more weathered/ruined version of Castle, as witnessed in e.g. Resurrection of Evil, but it doesn't exactly have the background you want. Or moss, for that matter. Besides that... hmm. Corrupted Sanctuary might be a little too regular for your purposes. Or hey, there's always Medivo!

[ColdMetal]

Taking a closer look at that Rage of Aquarius example you posted there, it does have a more aquatic and overrun feeling to it. I'll give it a try, and see what results I can get out of it.

EDIT: Well, from first impressions, it does have a better feel than the Castle 2 Night tileset I was using. I think it will do well enough, but I will have to wait and see how it all unfolds.

[Sean]

Rage of Aquarius is a fantastic tileset, but it really feels more weathered than it does ruined, and tiles for collapsed stone and other assorted necessary types are still missing from most other tilesets. There IS a WIP collaborative tileset (http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showthread.php?t=19202) specifically being ruined, but all the participants haven't been contributing for a while.

[Jgke]

There IS a WIP collaborative tileset (http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showthread.php?t=19202) specifically being ruined

Great choice of words you had there...

[Obi1mcd]

So Rage of Aquarius is probably one of your best choices for what you want, as there aren't too many tilesets that are that specific. The LMAT project that Sean posted is <s>dead</s> on hiatus until people get interested again. Otherwise it might have been a good choice.

[PT32]

Okay, so reading through this thread, I had a few ideas that might help...

It looks like Rage of Aquarius's your man, so there's not much to say there besides advising that you use the tileset in original and unique ways. Moss isn't really a factor of the set, but it can still be (limitedly) replicated by using vines or grass bridges, purely as eyecandy (or within walls, where they can't mess up your gameplay). Also, try placing a translucent black tile in Layer 6, then build some platforms and "castley" stuff in Layer 7. That way, the Layer 7 castle "ruins" will be darker than the Layer 4 castle "ruins", and the prospective Jazzer won't be confused by what appears to be side paths, but is really simple eyecandy. A mid to bright green Layer 8 fade color background might work well, although this is more up to you.

Also, have you thought about what song you're going to use? Because if you're going for the ruined/wet castle look, I would highly recommend dark_ages.xm (http://sidney.mirror.modarchive.org/12279/XM/D/dark_ages.xm.zip), available on Modarchive. I was going to build a level similar to the one you're building (Ironically, also with RoA), but gave up on it due to other projects I was working on at the time. Dark Ages was the song I had chosen for it, and I think it'd work pretty well for you. But again, it's up to you.

Hope this longwinded spiel helps!

[ColdMetal]

Thank you for all the advice everyone. So far, the Rage of Aquarius tileset is working out well, and I think I see a common theme to present throughout the level.

I tried PT32's suggestion of using a transparent black wall to allow for more variety, and I discovered that a careful application of walls behind it can effectively create three different dark tones of backround walls in progressing order. That should work out quite well, but I am still uncertain exactly what to do with the backround, as I originally envisioned the level as being underground or in the midst of some very extensive ruins.

If I go with the former, creating the impression of an underground lake while making the farthest layer of the backround believable will most likely be difficult. Simply painting it dark would not make it too appealing, I think. Any suggestions?

[Sean]

If it comes to the worst case scenario you can just wait for the LMAT to finish because it seems to suit your needs very well so far.

(Hint: IT WILL NEVER BE FINISHED)

[Obi1mcd]

If it comes to the worst case scenario you can just wait for the LMAT to finish because it seems to suit your needs very well so far.

(Hint: IT WILL NEVER BE FINISHED)

>=[

[PT32]

Here's an idea.

You should ask LMAT to put the things in their tileset that you're looking for! Sort of like a request line. As long as it's not too unreasonable (as in too difficult to pull off) or aberrant from the tileset theme, I'm sure they'd be happy to take your suggestions.

Also, in reference to the previous question about making a believable background, try making the Layer 8 fade color bright blue (disregarding my previous comment about green) behind the Layer 6-7 stuff. It may not completely solve your problem, but it'll enhance the mood.

Oh, and you should try using bubblers with differing speed settings under the water (the only place they'll work, btw). That could help.

[Violet CLM]

Yeah, but we/they/whatever can put all the things in LMAT that get asked for, but it still has to get <em>finished</em> before it can be <em>used</em> for anything. I redirect your attention to LMAT: Valentine's Day.

[ColdMetal]

Well, it's been a while, but I believe this particular level is starting to take shape.

I've added the standard sky and scenery backrounds in the Rage of Aquarius tileset on layers 8 and 7, and a "near" backround on layer 6, but after playing around with lighting a bit I ended up coming across a way to create a decent "foggy" atmosphere.

What I did was use Set Light events around the starting point with Intensity set to 127, and the the rest of the variables set to 0 to avoid filling the entire screen with white. That created a light fog effect, but then I put a transparent black tile on a foreground layer with Tile Width and Tile Height checked in the layer settings, and did the same with a transparent white tile on layer 5.

The end result is a realistic "dark" fog and atmosphere, with any lights leaving holes in it. Anything in the backround is more difficult to see due to going through a transparent white tile, giving the impression of a deeper layer of fog. Interestingly, projectiles from weapons still create light, despite normal lights not having any positive effect.

I'm thinking this may prove to be useful for atmospheric effects if a solid black tile and a solid white tile are worked into tilesets. I don't recall seeing much in the way of foggy levels in JJ2 before.

[cooba]

Can you show a screenshot? That looks promising.

[ColdMetal]

I don't have a suitable means for storing screenshots offsite unfortunately, so I endeavored to describe how I did this as best as possible instead.

[Stijn]

http://www.google.nl/search?q=image+hosting+service

[ColdMetal]

Thanks for the tip, Stijn. Looks like it was easier than I thought it would be.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/568/cmsunkencitydarkfogdemo.jpg

Here's a demonstration of the dark fog I mentioned earlier. Like I said before, this actually has lighting set above what would be normal, as there is no "bubble" of light around Jazz in this screenshot (the light right where Jazz is present is the trail generated from holding down the Run key). The transparent black tile in the foreground darkens the entire scene to give the illusion of darkness, while the transparent white tile in front of the backround renders it as if it had a heavier layer of fog in between it and layer 4. The blaster projectiles shown here also give light still, so the illusion is complete.

I've tried using different kind of lighting events to see what would happen, and Flicker Lights have a particularly interesting and somewhat realistic effect (not shown here): the fog appears to flicker a bit.

[n0]

Just a tip, if you want stronger fog, set the "red" parameter in the set light event to -1. It rolls a bit over, then you can play with lighting effects between 128 and 255 by changing the standard light level. And i agree, flicker is the best effect in fog. See here (http://www.jazz2online.com/downloads/2521/project-fog/) for an example.

Oh and i like the idea of layering reverse lighting with dark tiles, it looks really awesome.

[Groxi]

Hey I need a help, I created a server but it is always says: pinging and my friends can't join.

I play on win 7, can you give me an advice?

[Ragnarok!]

Open port forwarding on ports 10052 and 10054 on your router.

[ColdMetal]

Well, I've been giving this level some more thought, and it seems the direction it is beginning to take is that of a battle level rather than a single player one. The haphazard architecture and generally wide space appears to lend itself well to this purpose, not to mention the backround giving the impression of being way up above ground level (I believe this impression is perfect for making the use of pits plausible in JJ2+).

On the other hand, I don't really recall fog being used this way before on a battle map, so I think this is a turn for the better. The level itself has an extensive amount of space for multiple players (currently 320 x 128. I may change this), and it is beginning to find a personality of its own in terms of design.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5199/cmsunkencitylevelmapv1.jpg

I will be sure to fill in the missing spaces of course, but this is the current state of completion present in Sunken City, at 25% zoom (not accounting for the foreground/backround combination, already detailed in a previous post). This should provide a suitable enough example to demonstrate the theme and design I am aiming for, being more organic in nature.

The curves and slopes within are intended to provide some measure of cover from opposing fire, though appropiate use of specific weapons or flanking should be enough to circumvent this advantage. I am also aiming for this to be somewhat vertical as well, with a clear warp in a dead-end or two to add some measure of chaos to the match (ie. allowing a quick transition between the top and bottom levels by running to the far edge, rather than using springs). The other main consideration I am seeking to take into account is to not let the bounds of the level get so close to the edge as to stop the camera, therefore giving the impression of a much larger region.

With all that said, do any of you have advice in regards to this kind of endeavor? I am contemplating what types of weapons would best fit in this level, from both atmospheric and practical standpoints. There is also the question of how many power-ups and carrots would fit in a level of this size, among other considerations.

[Sean]

I still recommend you complete this as a single player release. There aren't enough good SP levels out there, and if you can do it well enough we'd all be grateful.

[cooba]

Looks good so far!

320x128 is <em>huge</em>. If you were to half the width it would be on par with <a href="http://www.jazz2online.com/downloads/previewfile.php?fileID=17871">Dethroned</a>, which is still very big but should be fine in your case, since you're not filling the entire space.

As for weapons, I'd say anything goes, maybe except Pepper Spray (might be hard to see amidst all the fog). Judging from that small bit of a layout, I can tell you Bouncers and Seekers will work best (at least in that particular scenario), so if you plan on putting powerups for either of those, make it require a little more effort than with other powerups.

Oh and obviously, if you feel like making Battle, then make Battle O+

[Sean]

I am highly amused by the negrep to my post that links to a YouTube video titled shut the fuck up.

[ColdMetal]

Well, I have been working on this level for some time, and I have narrowed down the art style to two different choices. Each one appears to have their individual strengths and weaknesses, and I am finding it difficult to choose between them.

The first style is the one demonstrated in the screenshots I linked above. It focuses on more of a ruined feel to the immediate backround, and a haphazard style in regards to level layout. I can see it as encouraging cover tactics to defend against certain ammo selections (ie. bouncers) and the use of flanking as both a counter and a strategy, but I get the feeling that it may grow old if over-used -- especially given the significant size of Sunken City.

The second option is not displayed here, but is more of a "preserved" layout, focusing on smooth surfaces and inclines for the level (periodically interrupted by an object of some kind, and colums in the backround. While I feel this can retain its use over a larger expanse, I can also see it as being bland in nature.

Any advice and/or suggestions in regards to art style? As far as I can see, while there has to be just the right balance of eyecandy and tile use involved, this is currently the most significant issue here. If I can get this right, the rest should fall together relatively quickly.

[Obi1mcd]

Well you could do both. I don't know if it would make the level design more difficult, but visually I think it would look good if you had one section in good condition and another falling apart.

[cooba]

Obi is right. Variety is good!

[ColdMetal]

I have given this some more thought in light of the advice and suggestions given, and I have now decided upon a third alternative.

The layout I currently have in mind focuses on providing three distinct floors throughout the level. I am planning on going for the "preserved" approach for the foundations, the "ruined" art style for the upper regions, and a new "destroyed" appearance (not actually using floors, simulating a gigantic ripped-apart layer) for occasional passages in between.

I see this approach as suitable, given the plausibility of such a scenario: as this is a Sunken City, the foundations could have dropped to an extent and preserved the lower halls, leaving any higher ground ruined and haphazard due to a lack of support from beneath, having a side effect of the rock in between occasionally breaking apart and leaving a destroyed tunnel separating the two. The last point listed here could also account for occasional pits scattered throughout the lower floor.

What do you all think?

[Obi1mcd]

It sounds like a good plan.

[cooba]

Good plan indeed.

How'd you go about the level size?

[ColdMetal]

Good plan indeed.

How'd you go about the level size?

While the extensive width in the level was a side-effect of being a single player map beforehand (as the backround acts up once a certain point is reached on the Y-axis), it honestly feels somewhat crowded if the size is too small. It remains to be seen if I really use up that much space on the X-axis of course, but it at least leaves me with substantial room for designing.

With three different "floors", this also leaves me in a position to design them free-form. I want to give a natural feel to the level rather than have it give the impression of being constrained.