Speed

[Violet CLM]

The point has been made many a time that JJ1 didn't quite know what it wanted to be. The engine was built for speed, the camera really wasn't, and the level design didn't do the best job with it. The <em>l33t Demoscene coding</em> gave them a game centered around speed, but that wasn't something they really knew what to do with. Heck, if you go back and look at Google Groups archives from <em>1994</em> you can see people saying the game doesn't live up to the engine. JJA went in the reverse direction, and while I wouldn't mind the addition of a run key, I can't really fault them for realizing what speed their gameplay was most naturally built around.

So what about JJ2?

In multiplayer, as far as I can tell there's really no issue. Everybody runs pretty much all the time, to the point that JJ2+ added an Always Run menu option/command <em>in addition to</em> the existing capslock key and normal run control. But do we really have single player levels that expect you to run, or rather, give you any good reason to? The official levels have their moments with horizontal springs and h-poles and sucker tubes, of course, which amount to little more than cutscenes and which people don't seem to emulate very frequently.

For moments of actual interactive gameplay, the Wanderlust demo is the only level I can think of atm that really makes me feel like I should be running the whole darn time. It accomplishes this with very simple, open level design, lots of horizontal springs for effect, and not many sections of any complexity. When you do have to slow down, mostly to avoid the animated fireballs, JJ2's massive 640x480 resolution and flexible camera give you time to notice and get ready. It's a great experience, but sadly extremely rare.

We have a very fast game engine. What are the level-making tools we have to incorporate, encourage, or even reward that speed? How do we make speed not only <em>feasible</em>, but <em>desirable</em> or dare I say <em>fun</em>? Collapse scenery? Rotating rocks? Wind? Timed sections? Or some newer ideas, born of AngelScript?

(For bonus points, can speed and the normal enemy-killing-pickup-collecting-secret-finding gameplay work together in any way besides alternating, clearly marked sections of one vs. the other? Alternatively, am I wrong in my characterization of multiplayer as all-speed-all-the-time, or do you think there's room for variation there that doesn't exist currently?)

[cooba]

JJ2's massive 640x480 resolution.....

[PurpleJazz]

.....

Massive if you compare it to the 320x200 resolution of old school platformers like Sonic (and JJ1).

[Stijn]

More emphasis on pickup collection would allow for level designs in which you need to maintain a certain (high) speed to make the jumps required to reach the pickups, which would allow for certain kinds of obstacles, et cetera. That's a pretty common design pattern, of course.

I was actually thinking about this while playing Rayman Origins the other day; you can make it through most levels rather easily without running (or not running), but to get all lums you need to maintain momentum, time your jumps, and things like that, which certainly adds some depth. Additionally, if you manage to maintain speed and simultaneously avoid getting hurt you are rewarded with an incredibly smooth journey through the level, where you avoid traps and spikes just barely, because everything's designed around that. Speed and precision is rewarded with a tight experience, and a bonanza of pickups that are placed just so that a smooth path through the level will get you most of them, which is a great incentive.

Jazz levels more often than not are mainly about reaching the exit rather than collecting things or avoiding all traps (thanks to the five hearts you have and the abundance of carrots), I feel, which does not necessarily make the most of the game's strengths. There's puzzles, of course, which especially in user levels are pretty common, but those are pretty much the antithesis of speed-based gameplay (usually). Maybe a focus on collecting things would be a way to utilize the game's strengths.

[Stijn]

Oh, and taking some more inspiration from Rayman Origins; how about implementing wall jumps in JJ2+? Maybe even make it require a certain speed to work, or link the strength of the wall jump with the player's speed. It would give level designers another tool to reward speed.

Another factor that I imagine might be at play in this issue is the fact that Jazz is up to top speed in, like, 2 frames. Getting hurt or losing your momentum otherwise is cheap as you can get back to full speed with little effort. If acceleration would be lower, interesting things could be done with speed in a level design sense; for example, platforms could be made so small that players would not have enough room to achieve full speed, which would limit the reach of their jumps, et cetera. I don't know how feasible changing this is engine-wise, though, maybe all there is in the game code is a binary switch between "slow" and "running" rather than a discrete "speed" value.

[Love & Thunder]

I have had some ideas in the past that play on speed. Perhaps once I've finally got all my JJ2 stuff on this computer, I'll show you all. :)

In the meantime, though, I think that JJ2 can definitely be very fast, and the 640x480 resolution can make that speed not as unforgiving as in JJ1 was when you went fast(Having said that, JJ1's main campaign is much more fun than JJ2's, in my opinion).

[Obi1mcd]

The thing about speed in games, I think, is that you need to be able to go faster than usual, but that it shouldn't necessarily be easy. With JJ2 you can always go at full speed, you're never going too fast to see what's coming, you can never go faster than that maximum (not while being in control, at least), and there's very little reason to slow down.
I've never thought of JJ2 as a "fast" game, unlike JJ1, which feels fast but very hard to control.

The main other games that come to mind for going fast are Sonic games (surprise surprise) and Dustforce.
I'm talking classic Sonic here, not the newer stuff. Sonic Unleashed is fast, but it feels more like a twitchy obstacle course that moves on its own, and not like it's moving that fast because you made it so.

I'm not really going to ramble about Sonic because most people already know the deal there. Dustforce shares with the classic Sonics a physics engine that lets you move quickly if you take advantage of the environment. Both also have their share of easy, almost cinematic parts, and each has some kind of supplemental mechanics to encourage speed.

The physics behind Dustforce are quite simple. Your usual platformer fare, with walljumping and stuff, but the 2 important things are a dash and a stomp. The dash lets you go at "full speed", essentially JJ2's run button, letting you gain momentum quickly, but not past a cap. The stomp brings you to the ground very quickly, but its value is in when you use it on a slope to rocket yourself forwards instead of simply sliding mario-style.

Also of note is that Dustforce has other mechanics to encourage speed too. A simple combo system makes sure you're moving at an average speed often, and when looking at the leaderboards you can see how others achieved their best times, so you can see that those speeds are actually achievable.

Point is, for a game to feel fast, at least for me, it requires some degree of effort to attain that speed and some loss of control when you reach it. But the level design must accomodate this and other mechanics supplement it. JJ1 has the loss of control down, but you don't even need to hold down a run button to get to that speed. JJ2, though, is too controllable at its high speed, and you can never move past it.

The game still feels as though it's at odds with itself. Combat in single-player is often boring and easy, unless you have a clever level designer. Jazz can attack from a distance while the majority of enemies can't, so you are essentially encouraged to stop at a distance and take them out before heading through. And you're never rewarded for being fast in any way.

So with all that said, I don't really know how to make something that really feels fast within JJ2. I feel like you'd need some significant AS stuff for extra mechanics, or at the very least some clever level design to make things work.

[Love & Thunder]

Anyone here ever play Runman: Race Around the World (http://whatareyouwait.info/)? It's basically what Sonic 4 should have been, and it's one of the first things I think of when I think of speed in games(Also, the soundtrack is great. Oh, and it's Freeware).

[KRSplatinum]

Well, one thing speed-related that's broken in JJ2 is the shoes. They should work like JJ1 shoes, speeding up Jazz or whoever is your character beyond his regular running speed. He can sustain Olympic pace speed until he stops wearing shoes, which is an allotted amount of time that varies with the shoes, I guess. In JJ1 that time is only about 30 seconds to 1 minute, by my horrendous estimation.

Another unrelated topic is that of armor. Comparing DanZeal's JJ2 CTF map Facing Worlds to the original Facing Worlds in Unreal Tournament 3, the original map has helmet armor, so I think that helmet armor would make that map more realistic.

[Love & Thunder]

IMO, the shoes should work similar to the jumping shoes in JJ1, but instead of increasing jump height, they should increase speed. Not only would this be more useful, but it would break less already existing levels(Such as the Cloning Jazz(?) pack, which had a lot of shoes in level 2).
(Also, I apologise if my previous post sounded like an advertisement)

[Violet CLM]

Massive if you compare it to the 320x200 resolution of old school platformers like Sonic (and JJ1).It's not even solely about the literal number of pixels, since if all the sprites were bigger, the advantage would be lessened.
I don't know how feasible changing this is engine-wise, though, maybe all there is in the game code is a binary switch between "slow" and "running" rather than a discrete "speed" value.No, there's speed. There's even an in-between animation that you only ever see very briefly, unless you specifically cue it up using a run dash.
In JJ1 that time is only about 30 seconds to 1 minute, by my horrendous estimation.IIRC, every Fast Feet event has a parameter specifying how many seconds of speed it gives you, so it's not always the same time.


Incidentally, Robo, the number of posts you are making including "when I reinstall JJ2" or some variation is getting preposterously large. Just reinstall it already!
(Also incidentally, I can't think of a walljump mechanic I've liked, but that's just me.)

[Treylina]

I consider SE's "This end up" and partly his "QoB" to be a level that makes good use of speed and rewards it, sometimes it's even necessary. I recall some levels in the Devres series were like that, too.

Not worth repeating myself on what others have already said, so I'll just say this;

Part of the reason for barely any levels incorporating it was due to limitations.

[Violet CLM]

Oh, that's true, there's the Flood Control or whatever level using Dreempipes. The Deserto level in the Unleashed demo also sort of qualifies... the rock itself isn't the fastest moving thing in the world, but when you're <em>not</em> on it, you'd better be quick.

[Love & Thunder]

Incidentally, Robo, the number of posts you are making including "when I reinstall JJ2" or some variation is getting preposterously large. Just reinstall it already!
Well, the copy I installed JJ2 from is inacessable ATM, and the only other option is the LK Avalon version, which doesn't support Plus.
So, when I say "When I get JJ2 working"(Or some variation of that), what I mean is when I put my old hard drive in my new computer.
(EDIT: And yes, I do plan on doing this very soon.)

Also, about the walljump thing, surely that could be done with some AngelScript wizardry?

[DoubleGJ]

One thing I do whilst doing my never-ending work on my levelpack (I've gotten back to it again recently) is looking at my favorite platformers and figuring out what makes them fun. When it comes to speed, Jazz took over many elements from Sonic... and then messed them up, kinda. I realize Epic had best intentions when they gave the player a lot of control over the character, and indeed mobility in Jazz, especially in Jazz2, is never quite the problem. What is the problem, however, is that the characters are TOO mobile, and few non-harming obstacles are really a threat.

Basically, two things in Sonic cause the need to keep up your pace: one is the fact that Sonic can't just stand on a slope. He'll automatically gain momentum down one, and will need the speed to scale up the next one. He can't just jump up it, either, because Sonic's jumps are always perpendicular to the surface he's on. Compare this with Jazz. Second, every Sonic level has at least a 10-minute time limit. It's large, sure, but it CAN run out if you're hanging around too long.

When working on my levelpack, I don't center it around one thing. Some levels are mayhem, some are puzzle, some are speed. Many are divided into 2-3 segments which are different type each. When doing the speed type, I always try to give a sense of urgency. <b>This is something I've been trying to work into JJ2+ by suggesting the timer feature. This is also why I suggested the Slide event making characters slide down slopes automatically.</b> And this is part of my leveldesign. Of course, every timer is explained in the storyline, every conveyor belt and slide make sense given the surface. The item placement also encourages speed - while I put secrets upon secrets in my levels, speed-oriented areas rarely have any, and if they do, it's more a question of quick reaction that deliberately avoiding all the poles and springs to slowly and carefully look around. I mean, it's doable. But it's also less fun and absolutely unnecessary.

And the final thing I came up with that was inspired not by Sonic but by Metroid Zero Mission was the inclusion of shortcuts. Jazz1 has a few. Jazz2? Maybe that upper path in the first Diamondus level... I think you can also skip a part of the second Damn level by stomping floating lizards. In my Devil Dash, I added in lots and lots of very hidden ways to breeze through levels. These are the hardest to find secrets. Some are just really well hidden destructible blocks, but many require techniques such as luring flying enemies, backtracking, RF jumping and TNT jumping. They don't give points, but they give a sense of exploration and achievement. I haven't really tested, but I believe that by finding them all you can skip like more than a half of the levelpack. In an ideal case, players would be able to count their playthrough times and compare them. Speedrunning is quite a popular thing among many gamers and has a lot of viral potential.

In conclusion, it's doable. We may need to make a few more tweaks to the game, but in reality, it's really all in the level design. Perhaps in time I'll finally be able to show you. Fresh ideas are scarce ever since EvilMike disappeared into the shadows.

P.S. As for making speed, picking up items and fighting enemies work together. I may suck at scripting, but I'm trying to figure out how making a Sonic Advance 2-styled boss could work. Look it up on YouTube if you're not familiar with the game.

[Violet CLM]

I was reminded of this thread yesterday when playing <a href="http://store.steampowered.com/app/239800/">Bleed.</a> You're not running (or forced to run) <em>all</em> the time in Bleed (the train level sort of encourages taking breaks), but it's pretty common. Some factors that come into play here:
<strong>Autoscrolling</strong> segments: this is a no-brainer and lots of games have them, but they're at least worth mentioning.
<strong>No pickups</strong> at all. No secrets either, unless I missed something, or keys and locks or anything like that. This is completely the opposite of Stijn's suggestion from the start of the thread, but it also means there's no <em>reason</em> a player wouldn't want to keep moving forwards at all times. (ETA: Although you could probably get away with pickups so long as they're in a straight line directly in front of the player, and maybe even disappeared if you passed them without collecting them?)
Enemies <strong>weak enough</strong> for you to kill them <em>before</em> reaching them, assuming you aim correctly. A tuf turtle, unless you can jump over it, does not encourage speed. A lizard is fine.
Danger from <strong>behind you</strong>. This feels like a big one, even though it doesn't show up in every level. It shouldn't be <em>safe</em> to stay in one place indefinitely.

So there are some surface thoughts. Bleed also puts a big emphasis on <strong>dodging</strong> through the use of the dash and time-slow mechanics, in combination with lots of enemy bullets, but it might be possible to separate out the speed from that? Idk.