The reason why making CTF levels is pointless and why you're all bad players.

[EvilMike]

I just figured something out. Almost none of you seem to be good CTF players. When you think of what makes a skilled CTF player, one of the first things that comes to your mind is most likely playing often. Another common thing that you may come up with is knowing the levels. This is all true. Now think to yourself, can you be a good player if you limit yourself to one level? Can you be skilled if you do not know anything about any levels besides a single one that you constantly play every day and night? The answer is no. You will only be a good player in the level you limit yourself to. Ultimately, you will not be a good CTF player.

The sad thing is, a lot of you do just that: you isolate yourselves from almost all CTF levels and stick to a single one, specifically Diamondus Warzone. Every single time I have done a CTF duel (either one on one or two on two), besides a few rare occasions when I was testing one of my levels, the game has been played in DW. There is no use at all for any CTF level made from 1998 to this date besides for casual playing. All the serous playing is done in DW. I am sick of this.

As a level maker, I take this as an insult. As a player, I don't know what to take this as; it just seems to make the game less interesting. I have spent a large amount of time pouring my ideas and time into making good CTF levels, and I just learned that I wasted it all. This is why I am giving up making Capture the Flag levels for jazz2 for a while. I probably will make them again some day, but I don't know when that is, because I really don't think making a level is worth it right now. I'll still be making levels, but they won't be the CTF ones I am good at making, and they definitely won't be released on J2O.

I don't care if you want me to continue making CTF levels, because I know that almost none of you will do more than glance at them on one of the rare occasions I host a server. You are welcome to try convincing me that I am wrong about all this though.

Don't think I will make battle levels either. Even though the battle level world isn't plagued by this problem, I never really liked that gametype. I'm not going to make this rant any longer though.

I have wasted my time long enough.

[Syntax]

What a harsh reality.

[Turtleslayer]

Indeed...
Mike, don't stop making CTF levels. I enjoy playing your levels-simply because I and others do not use them for duels does not mean we dislike them, or merely take a casual glance at them. The obvious problem with dueling in custom levels is that one player may have a great advantage due to greater knowledge of the level-and the obvious solution is hosting those custom levels.

As for why I myself only host DW (and I imagine this goes for a few others as well)...

For one thing, Diamondus Warzone is simply my favorite level. I like the strategy involved, and I have a lot of old memories of it. Everyone knows it well, so everyone can have fun in it. (Gee, it sounds like I'm almost quoting you from your post a few weeks ago, heh.)

Also, Diamondus Warzone is, as you said, the primary level used for dueling in most CTF matches for the reasons listed above. It is therefore not unreasonable to say that is the best CTF practice level.

CTF skill in one level naturally spills over into skill in other levels. For example, I have never seen Trilogy or stripe play seriously in any CTF level other than DW, but I am sure they are both quite good at other levels. So, simply because someone plays one particular level for the most part does not mean they are unskilled at other levels.

I see other levels being hosted in other servers than mine quite frequently-I do not believe there are many other people than myself who consistently host only DW. Other people will frequently host the epic CTF pack, either because they prefer it to custom levels or are too lazy (like me) to go to J20 and download a pack-but that does not mean they dislike, or never host, custom levels.

I myself used to host a host of CTF levels (no pun intended), but lost the pack I had previously created upon changing computers, and lost the other levels I hosted when reformatting my hard drive fairly recently. So for now I am only hosting DW-but rest assured that will soon be put to rest (*glares at Bobby*).

Duels or matches in custom levels require more planning: for a fair and equitable game, both parties should decide on the level at least a week in advance in order for both to become acquainted with it. Since everyone knows DW and the other more common Epic CTF levels, it is much easier to hold tournaments in them.

Enough rambling. That's my two cents. By the way, Mike, if ever you want to duel in one of your levels or another custom level, I'd be quite happy to if given advance notice of whatever level you'd prefer. =)

[Violet CLM]

What I really dislike about Mike's post, is that he said DW is the only level used for Serious games, and all the rest are used for casual.
Just because a game has more then two people, how does that make it not serious? You can have this huge fight with no one talking and everyone playing their hearts out in a little known CTF level, and yet this is casual, so it doesn't count at all?
WRONG.
But Mike seems to think this is the truth.

[EvilMike]

My definition of a serious game is one that is planned and generally in a passworded server. Many of these games contain way more than two people, and I can assure you almost all of them are Diamondus Warzone. A casual game is just something you might play in and chat, where not everyone is playing to their fullest most of the time, also known as a non passworded CTF server. I use those as terms; not accurate descriptions.

I also didn't mean (and I quote) "All the serous playing is done in DW" literally. I exaggerated, which is quite normal when people are trying to make a point about something. Do not confuse that with a lie or me trying to trick you. I can see that coming up in a future post.

Furthermore, I think I should make it a bit more clear why I posted this rant. I am not asking you to host my work, and I am not complaining about how nobody likes what I do or something stupid like that. I am, in a nutshell, saying that you people ought to play in custom levels more often because there are tons of them waiting to be used. The point of making levels is for them to be played in, isn't it?

[Syntax]

lol

[defalcon]

Are you joking? I don't always play DW, in fact, if I'm hosting I'll only host DW if I have to or by request. I usually use custom CTF levels (*cough* Crimson Diamond *cough* Surfs Up CTF *cough*) I even duel or challenge people in them (Sal and Krezack...muhahahaha!)

So don't stop making CTF levels. It'd be a real shame.

[MaGoo]

I tend to do the serious playing on DW, but I also occasionally practice in some of the Happy CTF levels. Those levels rock. I find that if any CTF level is played often enough, it will become as popular as DW for dueling or just casual playing. That's why DW became so popular. Think of the shareware days, most of them was the same old level in every server. Soon enough, we all enjoyed that one same level. I would think that the only possible solution if you want your levels to be played often Mike, is to either put them on iCeD's server, or host for many hours a day. That's all I can think of right now.

[FireSworD]

Honestly, i hate DW i can NEVER seem to win very much in that level. When i host CTF it would be either a level i made or levels like: Darker Science,Swingin Jazz,Surfs up CTF or Crimson Diamond. I never really cared for the Happy CTF's or BB either.

[Ginny]

Its hard for me to play a ctf level until I get used to the map unless that is if its an easy map.
CTF levels I am good at:

capture1

capture2

a couple happy castle levels

a level by bloodbunny

[~SPLASH~]

I agree people are focusing too much on Diamondus Warzone, much like battlers focus on Battle 1. Those people aren't good players, they just know the level and its tricks by heart. But yeah, they should playing home cooked lvls instead.

[||Slim]

i totally agree.

every time i can find a ctf duel, its the same level. DW. its THE SAME OLD CRAPPY LEVEL! *runs*

anyways... i think that DW is a very good level but you shouldnt be focused on it. i LOVE The martin levels and i think im not bad at them, but every time i can find a ctf duel its the same DW.

[Chiyu]

I couldn't agree more..
Battle1 and Capture3 are good levels, but it gets pretty boring that almost everbody wants to play in them and if they're good in those levels they think they're the best of JJ2..

[Newspaz]

Okay Mike, shall we quit creating Battle levels to? It's almost the same story. In example.. I can win from anyone in Kings Crown.

[Xeno_old]

I made a CTF level that actually requires teamwork a long time ago but no one ever used it (Probably because it was after I got crappy at making levels again; it was nearly entirely symetric). Each person had a role, such as the bouncy attackers that could attack safely from above the neutral zone and the specialized weaponry. I still have the lvl somewhere if someone wants to make it more interesting (and none Mez, lol).

[Deadlock DL]

Well this is true ben when i (used to) host i always hosted a various ctf pack, old happy ctf pack lvls ánd newer lvls. i played DW a lot but i enjoyed playing in the newer lvls as well

[mirrow]

Well all of it is true
but what do u understand of an good player then ?
U have to know secret passages tricks hint of the lvl u play or u automaticly suck .Lock if u wouldn't know for example all the tricks in battle1 u would lose almost every battle. You have to know the general gameplay and the lvl .Both is important not only the general way u play.
YOu also play about <strike>90%</strike>100% of ctf-clanwars in Dw so why shouldn't u playperfect ctf in this lvl


Hm i hope u understand the my aim somehow ;)

[Xeno_old]

This reminds me of TFC somewhat. I play 2fort ALL of the time (mostly because it is a decent level and my friends on TFC only play on it), but I excel at other maps after a few minutes of familiarizing myself with my environment.

My definition of a good player in a game knows enough of the levels to survive in each one, but doesn't specialize in a single level. A good player doesn't necessarily have to have the best score.......

[Violet CLM]

And, uh, for what it's worth, I avoid playing in DW as much as possible.

[blurredd]

Diamondus Warzone is way too overused and obused. If you ever see me in a server with someone hosting DW, i'd be like, "Go to J2O and download sum levels!" cause I couldn't be ore tired of the level.

If you ever join my server, one of the last things I try to host is DW. I got so many CTF levels in my cache (even though i dont remember all of the good ones) that I find it pointless to host DW. I claim to be a Server God. If there's any good level that you want me to host, chances are I have it and I can host it with no problem. And here's a good tip for level making: try to make your levels in packs. Not only does it make it easier for people to access your levels, but it makes it easier to remember them (if they just happen to be a good pack of levels). I also suggest naming them with a common prefix like "elm" or "ml" or something like that. It makes it easier to find levels in your jazz2 directory.

Anyways, don't host DW. PLEASE don't host DW. J2O isn't there for no reason. Download some levels and start hosting them!

OK, so there was that one time that I hosted a mirrored version of DW, but I just wanted to see how bad the "good" players would play :P

Oh, and another thing. You know that I host your CTF levels from time to time, EvilMike (at least I tend to do that). Make more levels, please. If not for me, then do it for all of the others here that also agreed with you.

[EvilMike]

I don't think you should boycott DW. It is still a decent level. Just play other levels as well.

Remember: I -will- make CTF levels again some day. Just not now because of what I have said.

[MaGoo]

Xeno you play TFC? I rock at sniper at that level! I could kick ur bum ;P

[defalcon]

Fire Sword, you like Crimson Diamond and Surfs Up CTF too, huh? I must duel you in Crimson Diamond! :D

[Xpandoz]

This is the reason why I never make MP Maps! =)

[Michael]

Surfs up CTF?
can somebody send me that? the name attracts me to the level and I don't want to play DW, I don't like it much anymore.

[Xeno_old]

Magoo, we tryied to play each other before...remember? Anyhow, you wouldn't stand a chance against my sniper skills (especially since my ping is never above 100 unless the server is slow).

Of course, if that doesn't work, I'll beat ya up as a medic.

Anyhow, to stay on topic, DW shouldn't be banned, but it shouldn't be played all the time......oh you guys already said that.....


Nahr!

[Warlord!]

Originally posted by EvilMike


I have wasted my time long enough.


w3rd! I think I've wasted my time on making ctf maps too but one thing is for sure I ain't gonna let that stop me from making more ctf maps. However I'm focusing more on treasure these days, i'll be unleashing a pack on j2o later this month!
I don't like battle much and I've only made 1 battle level.


I can't remember the last time I saw Springboard CTF or Colonius Wars being hosted.
Diamondus Warzone and Battle1 are newbie maps!

[RockyR]

It seems to me they're awful choices of levels to be overused because it's so easy to lose with the powerups just laying around like that . . . it's fine and fun to lose in other levels but when you get crushed in those levels and it's only because you're plugged full of powerup rockets it gets kind've boring.
I'd think that even taking or switching those powerups with something else (Like what happened with the shield in Diamondus Warzone) would even make to make it a more tolerable level. I try to avoid using it to see if I'm skilled or not but if someone else is it's a mess.
It's beside the point though - Personally I like custom levels better because there's piles of noteworthy selections for a quality game. ^_^"


(Rocky)
Stuff is good.

[defalcon]

I personally don't like Colonius Wars, but I like Springboard CTF, That used to be hosted more often. I met Xeno in a server hosting Springboard CTF

[~SPLASH~]

Don't worry Mikey, I'm working on a CTF level right now (and I promise it won't be as sucky as my last one :p).

Ok, that was useless. *runs*

[Xeno_old]

That's why I hate homing missles, imbalance issues. That is why I have only used the in about 3 levels out of all of my levels.

[EvilMike]

When I make levels, I am usually careful with homing missles. Usually, if I do things right, the seekers won't be too useful if you only stick to them. I usually use the seeker powerup and I always find myself switching to rf missles and bouncers.

[MaGoo]

Going off topic again, Xeno: I would slaughter you. ;P

[Warlord!]

The seeker is like the flakcannon for jazz2. :rolleyes: :r

[KRSplat]

I host DW simply because everyone has it and I know the filename.

[FireSworD]

Originally posted by defalcon
Fire Sword, you like Crimson Diamond and Surfs Up CTF too, huh? I must duel you in Crimson Diamond! :D

Sure, Def, only after i get my new computer. :)

[Tubz]

This was also another 'hmmm' topic in a way.

[defalcon]

Originally posted by Fire Sword!
Sure, Def, only after i get my new computer. :)

I'm looking forward to it. Muhahahahaha!

[EvilMike]

Originally posted by JJ Tublear
This was also another 'hmmm' topic in a way.

What the heck is a "hmmm" topic? <a href="http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=696">This</a>?

[Disguise]

That's been how things were like for ages. Heck, if you're making levels because you want people to play them you've got it all wrong. If your level does get hosted (in some sort of miracle) it was just a fluke of luck in some way. Same with tilesets, if your set gets used it should be considered a miracle of some sorts. Don't think this is only in JJ2, it's everywhere in any game. People should make levels and/or sets because they enjoy it, not because they expect it to be used, you'll be greatly dissapointed.

[EvilMike]

Yeah, but take into consideration that this is a very small game, with a very small amount of good level makers. I would host my levels more often, but the stupid listserver seems to be down every time I want to host. It's not working right now, in fact.

[Tubz]

No a hmm.. topic is a topic I think is really weird. This topic is somewhat weird. I really have not much say in this because I don't play CTF too much it's mostly: Tests, Battles, and Survivor for me.

[Stijn]

*claps*

[FireSworD]

Well, now i think some people are starting to get out of their comfort zones to try other good CTF levels but all that battle players want to duel in is a battle 1. Most battle players only like battle 1 and not any other battle levels. I think they should get out of their comfort zones aswell.