Rules Feedback Thread

[Coppertop]

Thoughts and opinions are welcome.

RULES
1. Please do not write Mary-Sue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue) style stories. These stories are not likely to be taken seriously, and tend to be an annoyance to other members. Comedies and satires, action, fantasy and science fiction are all permitted and encouraged, but please write sensibly.

2. It is encouraged that you use other members' characters as well as your own and those from the JJ2 universe. Character profiles can be found (and should be posted) in the Profiles Thread (http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showthread.php?t=16383). Please do not make a separate thread requesting people to join your story; you should do this in your story thread, right after you post your first chapter.

3. Please attempt to keep your story content family friendly. If your story is graphic, you must have a disclaimer in your thread title to that effect. (Example: Story Title [DRUG CONTENT]) If there is no disclaimer and you wish one to be put in, please send a private message to myself or an administrator requesting it. If your story content merits a disclaimer and one is not present, I will add one in.

4. Do not include any explicit sexual content in your story. If you do, it will be edited out at the least. Mild content (kissing, romance, etc.) is permissible. Remember that this message board is family oriented. Please keep your writing tasteful.

5. Mild violence is permissible - action and fight scenes, etc. Graphic violence (torture, extreme goriness) requires a disclaimer. Again, please be tasteful in your writing.

6. While it is not required that your story take place within the Jazz Jackrabbit universe, please do not post fanfiction for other games/universes here.

7. You may or may not recieve critiques/suggestions on your story. This is not in any way an insult. If you are giving a critique, be polite, be civil, and be honest. Be detailed and helpful. Vague critiques do not help anyone.

[n0]

I don't know about number 6. Crossovers (http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showthread.php?t=15352) can be fun. The sonic one in that thread was well done.

-=Edit=-
Much better now.

[Radium]

1, 4, and 6 together rule out 99% of all fanfiction.

If I write a story that breaks every rule there can it count as a satire or would it just get moved/edited?

[Coppertop]

N0, that's a good point about crossovers. On second thought, it will probably be sufficient to just leave it at "no fanfictions for other games".

Rad: hahaha.

[Doubble Dutch]

Hello there; I'm Sarah and I'm posting for the currently absent Doubble Dutch; she's written up and mailed me the final chapters for her story 'The End' (I had tot ype them all up, it took hours!) but I can't find her story thread to put them in.

It is possible I'm in the wrong place, or clicked the wrong option or something, I really don't know how this place works. So if someone could somehow show me what to do, that would be very helpful, thanks.

Tyhe thread was titled 'The End' and according to DD was supposed to be located in the 'War Tavern' section.

[Radium]

Tyhe thread was titled 'The End' and according to DD was supposed to be located in the 'War Tavern' section.
Threads, like people, get old and die. However, like Disney characters, they can magically be brought back!

In other words, only threads with a reply from the last 30 days show up. Click to http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showthread.php?t=15416 and post a response and it'll jump back to the land of the living.

[Doubble Dutch]

read something that isn't there anymore? that link is totally random and I can't think of any way anyone would be able to find it.

[Stijn]

...

If you post a reply there again, it will return at the top of the "recent threads" list. If that isn't good enough for you, too bad.

[n00b]

...Am I the only one who can see The End on the first page?

[Stijn]

Nope.

However, no one here stated he couldn't see it as far as I know :)

[Doubble Dutch]

No, you misunderstand; when I first arrived I could not see the thread, because, as you rightly pointed out, it wasn't recent. That nice fellow above found the thread, but I do not know how he did it. If he had told me just to reply in it to make it appear, I would not know how to get to the thread because there would be nothing to click. He provided a link to click, solving my problem this time.

[Radium]

It seems like there are debates on writing and Mary Sue-ness stirring up in Sweetness and Jwren's threads. Just to throw an idea out, do you think the WT's thread posting rules could be expanded to include debates and tutorials on storywriting theory as well? It would help separate the generalized criticism/responses (e.g. "never do this") from the story-related ones (e.g. "use more adverbs!"), as well as give new writers some tips to read before getting started. Maybe you could encourage the use of a tag before things that aren't stories (like "[Theory] how to be awesome")


.. and yay! I'm a nice fellow!

[Torkell]

If you scroll down to the bottom of the War Tavern page, you can change how far back it will show posts.

[Coppertop]

Radium, writing tutorials would be perfectly fine IMHO.

[n0]

Someone might want to make a mary-sue litmus test for the JJ2 universe.

[Radium]

I rather dislike Mary Sue tests; they leave too much out and grade on too many obscure things.

A Mary Sue really has to do with how well a character ties into the theme. I mean, look at Superman; he's handsom and has super powers and superior cryptonian morality or whatever, but that's what Superman is all about - a character everyone can put faith in.
Mary Sue tests, and Mary Sues in general, are always a mix of two very different concepts: nonsense and cliche. Nonsense has nothing to do with the plot (e.g. a character being super sexy when all he/she does is fight) and cliche is so overdone that people don't want to read it (the hero becoming the teenage commander of a huge rebel force). Overall, it's just "be original and follow the rules".

But, I strongly believe that the most important thing to remember about writing is that any rule can be broken if it's the focus of the story. Luke Skywalker became the teenage commander of a rebel force, but it worked because the whole story was about his heritage as a Jedi. And if you were writing a story about a supermodel that turns down her multi million dollar actress job to be an assassin, it would probably work to have her be beautiful even though all she does is fight. It's all in the focus.

[Coppertop]

Agreed, but usually Mary Sues are wish-fulfillment characters that are, frankly, badly done. I have nothing against wish-fulfillment, my own character is what I'd like to be (or used to, anyway) but I object when a character goes overboard.

[Radium]

I have nothing against wish-fulfillment, my own character is what I'd like to be (or used to, anyway)It bothers me greatly that 99% of wish fulfillment characters are assassins.

[Coppertop]

Scary, innit? Of course, assassins are cool. So are mercenaries, pilots and any form of magician.

[Doubble Dutch]

Hmmn, I like that discussion; in my opinion what ruins a lot of fanfiction is wish fulfillment; you're writing about an existing universe and should stick by its rules, you're not in charge and daydreams belong in your head.

I'll be quiet now.

[n0]

I agree with DD (Sara?).

The MarySue test should be as simple as:
Does your charcter fit in the JJ2 universe? (Anthro, space age, etc)
("No" give you two points)
Is this charcter your avatar? (Your namesakes charcter)
("Yes" gives you one point)
Could this character beat a main character hands down?
(A point for each)
Is your charcter a major love intrest of a main character?
(A point for each)
Does your charcter keep in charcter? (ie. can do things never trained to do well)
(Two points for "no")
Is your character really lucky?
(A point for "yes")
Does everyone else in the story treat your charcter like something special?
(Two points for "Yes"
Does "Mysterious" describe your character? For no good reason?
(A point for each)
Does your character meet any of these cliche: Related to main characters, has a twin, is an orphan...
(A point for each)

I ran a few character thru here...
Jazz gets a 5, Spaz, Lori and Devan all get a 4, so I'd say that if your character scores a five or more, it's a mary sue.
When I run my avatar thru, he comes out with a 4. It's what I expected, he's on par with player characters.
I just made this test up right now, any comments or suggestions?

[The SlaYeR]

I think you guys are taking this way to seriously.
There are people around here who are twelve or thirteen years old, do not expect all of them to abide by these rules.
You are also acting as if twenty stories a day are being posted here. This is not the case, we should be glad with all of the people we get and try to guide them in the right direction. Not cut them off before they've ever had a chance of writing anything.
I think the world rules needs to be changed into guidelines because being so strict in a part of the forum that is so incredibly low on activity is taking things way to far.

[Xobim]

Maybe giving some sort of example of a Jazz-universe Mary sue could help writers; A small story so they can compare theirs with...

[Violet CLM]

<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20010411030000/http://www.jazz2city.com/feats.htm">Return to our roots!</a>

[Radium]

I somewhat agree with Sara/DD on the fulfillment thing; wish-fulfillment can be amazingly done outside of fanfiction, but inside it often comes across as trite.

And I rather like your test, N0. It leaves out a lot of the things in the other I thought were completely unneeded. I think the "beat another character hands down" and "love interest" should be 2 each, though.

[n0]

...what I meant by "one point each" is that if you can beat Jazz hands down, you get a point. If you can beat both Jazz and Spaz hands down, you get two. So, because of the addition, I don't think it needs to be more then one point per each.

[Radium]

...what I meant by "one point each" is that if you can beat Jazz hands down, you get a point. If you can beat both Jazz and Spaz hands down, you get two. So, because of the addition, I don't think it needs to be more then one point per each.
Yeah, I guess that makes a more sense for the "hands down" one. I still think "love interest" should be at LEAST two each, because you're already approaching MarySueness if you're in a romance with one of the base characters, and if it's more than you're definitely a Sue (unless, of course, you are writing a story about some Carrotonian pimp).

[superjwren329]

Errr...13...14 Year olds?

*raises 16 and proud of it flag*

*gets beaten down by random users*

Okay...If my character is disliked THAT much, I'll make him weaker. If people don't like my story because of the POWERFUL characters...then I'll make em weaker.

Happy now?

SPOILERS: Jazz gets beaten by a beta version of Bolly in Chapter 5 (D)...

Owuch...Yes, I know I spoiled it a little...but it's gonna be posted tomorrow....thus proving Jazz CAN be beaten. Devan...however...

[Torkell]

I see your 16 and raise you 20. Age alone is no reason to stop enjoying things.

@Unknown Rabbit: Ah, those were the days. I found j2c about when the final upload of levels was announced, and have kept several sections including that in my own archive for many a year. Never did get the Star Wars references at first. I don't suppose you'd have a complete version of any of the tales posted there? Most of them seem to have been cut off part-way through, and the formatting explodes near the bottom

[Violet CLM]

Sadly, no. I wasn't around back then, but my best guess was that after the end of that page, it switched to the JMMB.

[superjwren329]

...The test...Huh? Okay...Let's see...

Does your charcter fit in the JJ2 universe? Yes, in a way.

Is this charcter your avatar? Yes. One point.

Could this character beat a main character hands down?

Wouldn't have the power to fight his friends. No.

Is your charcter a major love intrest of a main character?

No.

Does your charcter keep in charcter? I don't really understand that one. He can't do anything to do with guns, fire-arms, hand to hand combat...

Is your character really lucky?

I don't believe in luck, so no.

Does everyone else in the story treat your charcter like something special?

Not sure there...He's respected...because of his role, but that's pretty much it.

Does "Mysterious" describe your character? For no good reason?

No. Everybody knows about him. Not many secrets to hide...if any.

Does your character meet any of these cliche: Related to main characters, has a twin, is an orphan...

Was abandoned...so...One point.

So...I'd be about 3-5 points. My character seems within limits.

Anyways...Some characters are pretty broken plot or power-wise when you think about it. Jazz for example. He can fly with a flying surfboard, can obtain shield...invunerablity...some close combat...beat demons...

Yeah, he's kinda cheap. At least he isn't annoying...Thank goodness there isn't a movie...otherwise someone might ruin it...by giving him some lame voice...

*shudders*

[Radium]

Could this character beat a main character hands down?

Wouldn't have the power to fight his friends. No.I think the question is addressing if he has the physical power/skill to beat them, not the emotional strength (and "main" can refer to badguys, too). It's generally considered bad when your character is more powerful than any of the other main ones.

[superjwren329]

Well...He's capable of beating them if he's at his best. At the state he's in now...he'd be lucky to get out of a battle with Jazz/Spaz/Lori/Devan ect alive.

He remains quite weak through the the course of the story. Which is why he needs to be supported when he runs out of steam...

Plus, another weakness...He tends to be a bit too...emotional...

Besides...Devan...if you read the story so far...has got a pretty good power boost. So this will make things interesting...

[Strato]

Remember, answer honestly or the test is useless. That goes for all Mary Sue litmuses.

[superjwren329]

I did answer it accordingly....Are you implying that I am lying?

*slowly transforms into large and menacing monster*

I thought not...

*tries to change back*

Not again...Now look what you made me do!

[n00b]

*slowly transforms into large and menacing monster*


Pinocchio had the deal with his nose growing, I guess Jwren turns into a monster

[superjwren329]

Nah, I just go partialy insane. You're forgetting the sig...

*laughs crazily*

*watches random things happen*

*somehow gets caught on fire*

Joshua: What the....CRUD!!!

*explodes*

*reforms*

Owww...

[Coppertop]

I would really, really appreciate if you guys would keep this on topic. I don't mind discussion but some of these posts are definitely pointless.

[Ducky]

Seconded.

CT, after some useful discussion on this subject, would it be prudent to make a closed sticky thread dictating the rules, no longer open for casual debate and available for newcomers to read through without confusion?

[Coppertop]

My turn to second. I left this open to allow feedback from users, and there have been some good suggestions. Do you want to make a new thread or simply close this one?

[Ducky]

I think the rules should, at least within moderation, be dictated by the patrons of the forum, so if there is more feedback, or discussion that people are interested in, by all means it should be done. However until any particular rule is amended (which should probably only be done after good debate and a general consenses) perhaps we should have a thread closed and stickied with those rules that are decided upon up top, and leave this one open for feedback(maybe even edit the title to reflect such)?

[Coppertop]

Alright, I'll change the title and add a new thread.

Speaking of feedback, I don't suppose you guys have anymore to contribute?

[superjwren329]

Well....Sadly, rules that are made EVENTUALLY get broken. Not always intentionally I may add. Given that fact that some crossover stories can be REALLY good, or downright suck, I'd only recommend it if you have it balanced out with Jazz 2 Universe/Characters.

Devan and Jazz appear in my story, as well as his minons, only with different names. Like the giant green crab thing...I hated it's name, so I changed it...

Blisy and Bubba still have to be unleashed... Heh heh heh...

That said, I think this thread is losing momentum. I haven't much else to say but...make sure you spell correctly, or get someone else to re-post it for you. And if Jazz can have semi-immortality, why can't I?

*laughter*

[n0]

Uh... Jazz CAN (http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showthread.php?t=15734) die. Actually, his death (http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showthread.php?t=15734) makes a great story (http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showthread.php?t=15734).

[n00b]

And if Jazz can have semi-immortality, why can't I?

You're taking the wrong bit of Video Game logic to apply to a story.

I'm sure we've all played video games and noticed that with the exception of getting a gameover, characters can just spring back whenever they want to. However, if you notice, Pick-your-own adventure books* based on video games allow for only one life for the character. If your character does die, they tell you to restart the storyline from the very beginning. I'm sure there's some metaphor I could use, but I really don't want to think of one right now.

Anyways the point is various concepts of video games such as being able to constantly cheat death tend not to appear in written adoptions for the following:
1 Typically, the character's actions and personality are not defined by being able to use invincibility powerups and being able to infinitively revive himself
2 It does not make for a compelling story

So while Jazz is slightly invincible in games, it's because it's an interactive game, not a story where you can not directly control the character

*Just an example, mostly because I haven't read "normal" book adaptions of video games for a long time.

[Coppertop]

Well....Sadly, rules that are made EVENTUALLY get broken. Not always intentionally I may add. Given that fact that some crossover stories can be REALLY good, or downright suck, I'd only recommend it if you have it balanced out with Jazz 2 Universe/Characters.

Devan and Jazz appear in my story, as well as his minons, only with different names. Like the giant green crab thing...I hated it's name, so I changed it...

Blisy and Bubba still have to be unleashed... Heh heh heh...

That said, I think this thread is losing momentum. I haven't much else to say but...make sure you spell correctly, or get someone else to re-post it for you. And if Jazz can have semi-immortality, why can't I?

*laughter*

Rules do indeed get broken. If they weren't, there would be no need for moderators such as myself and Ducky. As for unintentionally breaking them, well, that's what this thread is for. And yes, there are exceptions to (almost) every rule, but they must meet certain criteria nonetheless, which we, the mods, determine.

Having JJ2 characters appear in your stories is indeed a good thing, but it does not guarantee the quality of your story by any stretch of the imagination. Three out of four of my stories did not involve JJ2 characters. The fourth and last did. Of course, none of my stories were crossovers, but my point stands.

Semi-immortality makes a character boring. No matter how much peril he or she is in, we yawn through it, because we already know they're not going to get killed. Video games are far, far different from fan-fiction in that sense.

I think we will leave this thread open. Other users may have feedback in the future and I believe it is important to hear them out.

[Radium]

Semi-immortality makes a character boring. No matter how much peril he or she is in, we yawn through it, because we already know they're not going to get killed.
I disagree here; in any story narrated in the first-person past-tense you know the main character won't get killed*. Heck, there's even been tons of interesting stories with immortal main characters. The webcomic Black Tapestries is narrated in the past tense by an immortal character. That makes her, like, <i>double immortal</i>.

For the story to be interesting, here simply has to be <i>something</i> threatened, whether another character, an idea, a feeling, a world, etc. Somewhere there needs to be the risk of loss or failure. If the reader already knows how the story will end, and how that end will come about, then there's no point in reading.

*The exception being ToU, where everyone dies all the time.

[Coppertop]

Excellent point Rad, I hadn't considered that. However I still believe that the sense of peril must be personal.

If I ever write another story, I will have a field day killing characters off. Yes, even other people's characters.

[n0]

Or you could just finish this (http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showthread.php?t=11555) story.

[Violet CLM]

I disagree here; in any story narrated in the first-person past-tense you know the main character won't get killed*.
Nonsense. To pick an example, the Supernatural Law issue "Black Market Souls" is told by a deceased character who simply does not realize he is dead until the end of the recounting. I sincerely doubt that that is the only incident of such happening in all recorded fiction.

[Radium]

Nonsense. To pick an example, the Supernatural Law issue "Black Market Souls" is told by a deceased character who simply does not realize he is dead until the end of the recounting. I sincerely doubt that that is the only incident of such happening in all recorded fiction.Good point, I overlooked that. I still think it's safe to say that in <i>most</i> past-tense first-person stories, the narrator has no threat of death. And if the narrator did die, the setup at the beginning would have to be highly specific to reflect this without giving it away (ruling out all stories where a grandfather is recounting his adventures to his children or something).

[Doubble Dutch]

I would say that the best stories, first person or not are those that fool the reader. Most movies we go to we could logically say that everything works out for the best in the end; the only stories with bad endings are usually horror. Yet we suspend our beliefs temporarily while the movie or story runs, with the best dragging us into the plot, making us feel what the character is going through. Someone is sick? Will they die? Probably not, but if done right we can cry right along with the main character.

It is how a story is written, rather than what we 'know' will happen that determines how good it is.

I sincerely doubt that that is the only incident of such happening in all recorded fiction.

One sentence; 'I see dead people!'


Sorry for another rant, this place is addictive.

[n0]

Hey, if you are still Sarah, not DD, could you do everyone a favor and sign up with your own account so we can tell the diffrence between you two?

[Doubble Dutch]

I suppose I had better before I make an even bigger mess of things. How do I go about doing that?

[Birdie]

You would go here (http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/register.php) then fill out the regestration information.

[ThunderPX]

Wait. This thread says your story doesn't necessarily have to take place in the JJ universe as long as it's not fanfiction for another game. However, the profile thread says your characters need to be in the JJ universe.

[Strato]

I think the rules state that compatibility needs to occur with your characters. We don't need characters that would belong in the sonic universe, but stories themselves don't have to take place in the Jazz universe.

I think that there is an uncertaintity in the rules. Basically there is no discretion between fan fiction and original prose. As it stands, if it's in the Jazz 2 universe, it's fan fiction and it's allowed. If it's in some other video game universe, it's not. If it's not a fan fiction of any kind, it's allowed as well though. Characters follow the same pattern.

[superjwren329]

And thus...the cogs were set into motion...total and utter chaos was unleashed on the poor people of this Tavern...the total eclispe of darkness rises...condeming us all to death...

Eeep.

Yeah. Death CAN be a good thing, if done properly. I intend to do that when the Final (D) chapter comes around, Joshua's in trouble...

[ThunderPX]

I have a question about n0's test. What's the point of the questions that give you a point no matter what you answer?

[n0]

I don't see what you mean, Thunder...

Let us introduce a new charcter, "Jane Jumpingrabbit"

Jane is a 17 year old pink and purple spotted lop rabbit. She was born and raised on Carrotus, and never plans on leaving the planet. She gets straight B's in school and works at a video rental place a couple hours a week for cash. She fits into the "normal" clique at school, isn't really popular or unpopular but gets along fine with most people and has a large number of people she would label "Friends."

Jane lives at home with her father and mother, who both have full time jobs, and her little brother, who she hates with a passion.

In the evenings, when she is not doing homework or working at her job, she is hanging out with friends or is going out with her longtime boyfriend Jake.

She has been to Jazz and Eva's castle once on a field trip, and has quite a crush on their son, the prince Zander.

When she grows up she wants to be a marine biologist, marry an engineer and have a million kids.


Now, let's see how she does for the test.

Does your charcter fit in the JJ2 universe? (Anthro, space age, etc)
Yes. (no points)
Is this charcter your avatar? (Your namesakes charcter)
No. (no points)
Could this character beat a main character hands down?
No, she doesn't fight at all. (no points)
Is your charcter a major love intrest of a main character?
A crush, never acted upon, does not count. (no points)
Does your charcter keep in charcter? (ie. can do things never trained to do well)
Yes, she is normal, no weird things going on here. (no points)
Is your character really lucky?
No, a bit of a clutz really. (no points)
Does everyone else in the story treat your charcter like something special?
No. (no points)
Does "Mysterious" describe your character? For no good reason?
Not remotely. (no points)
Does your character meet any of these cliche: Related to main characters, has a twin, is an orphan...
Nope. (no points)

Well, would you look at that, it's a charcter with NO POINTS. I don't get what you mean by a question that always gives you points, thunder.

`n0

[ThunderPX]

The MarySue test should be as simple as:
Does your charcter fit in the JJ2 universe? (Anthro, space age, etc)
("No" give you two points)
Is this charcter your avatar? (Your namesakes charcter)
("Yes" gives you one point)
Could this character beat a main character hands down?
(A point for each)
Is your charcter a major love intrest of a main character?
(A point for each)
Does your charcter keep in charcter? (ie. can do things never trained to do well)
(Two points for "no")
Is your character really lucky?
(A point for "yes")
Does everyone else in the story treat your charcter like something special?
(Two points for "Yes"
Does "Mysterious" describe your character? For no good reason?
(A point for each)
Does your character meet any of these cliche: Related to main characters, has a twin, is an orphan...
(A point for each)

Then what does that mean?

[n0]

...
Could this character beat a main character hands down?
A point for each character (Jazz, Spaz, Lori, Devan) that your charcter can beat hands down.

Let's say your charcter "Superrabit" could kill Devan accidentally. You know, by looking at him too hard with his lazer eyes. That would score one point.

Or, lets say you have a charcter "Superabbid" can kill Jazz, Spaz, Lori and Devan, even if they all teamed up together to beat him, by flexing his left pinky toe. This would merit four points.

In the case of Jane Jumpingrabbit, she couldn't kill Jazz if he was warped into a frog and Jane was given a Bazooka. She wouldn't stand a chance, never being trained with weapons or hand to hand combat. So she gets a point for each of the main charcters she can beat, that number being zero.

If you are still having problems understanding, I can repeat the process with the other three "A point for each" statements, but it should be suffice to say that if each=0, then points=0.

`n0

[ThunderPX]

Ah, pwned by the language barrier D=