I recently brought up a debate on #jj2 (on quakenet irc for those who didn’t know) about how the new powers of the list server network should be used, and we got some rather mixed views. I’m now asking JCF users on there opinion.

Before now, the List Server network was hosted without any control, and we have managed to live with that, and continued to play, but recent advances in creating our own list server, we now have the ability to control it more. Having the ability is fine, but how/if we use it, is up for debate.

Now before we get posts about power control etc, Let me state that myself Nimrod, have given equal admin powers out to various people, including #jj2 operators, j2o admins, and a few selected clan leaders for the time being. This is so that the community has a whole gets more of a say in the matter.

An admin has the ability to de-list servers from the list server, set the message of the day on the list server, (which appears on j2ov2/jj.net/hazes hideouts new GIP in the works) and also the optional ability to ban IP’s from hosting. Let me stress, banning is a pathetic option, and I don’t feel it should really be used, but it is there as a safety guard, should it ever be used.

Now onto the debate, should the community exercise control over the network, if so, how much?

Some crucial points is to consider is, Hate Server Names. By United Kingdom and European laws, any form of Racism/Homophobia/Sexism will HAVE to be de-listed from the European list server, no questions asked. Although, should “Personal Attacks” be removed from the list server as well? E.g., if someone hosted a server called “xx is a *rude word here*” should an admin remove it?

Also, on the note of fake servers (created using a tool like jazzforce, where there is no actual game running), I have come to the conclusion they will be de-listed via a automated system where that if a server is unpingable, after a set amount of time, it will de-list it automatically. Admins have been really busy having to remove pinging servers at the current moment, and there’s also a known bug which means some games get stuck if not de-listed via a proper jj2 shut down. Once this bug is fixed, and the automated system in place, perhaps we would re-consider why we have so many admins.

Also, in regards to removing untasteful servers, where does the line get drawn?
Should any control be used in the first place?
What should and shouldn’t we be able to do it?
How much control should we exercise?

Here are some questions for you to consider, all your views will be heard, although I please ask to keep flaming off this topic, this is about getting feedback. If you could also explain why you choose what you did, I would be grateful. It’s good to hear feedback; after all, this is about given the community control, so it’s up to you!

Hateful servers should be removed to an extent, although it might be a joke. It depends on whose hosting. If I go out and host a server called "TRAFTON IS A NOOB " then it's probably a joke. If someone who dislikes Trafton hosts a server like that it could be a personal attack.

I don't think the community should be given the power to ban people from the listservers in any way. I think that should be left up to Nimrod and the rest of the main list server team, because it's a pretty big deal when someone gets banned.

Indeed a good point LRK,

Perhaps Banning should be removed for general admins.

Originally Posted by Digiex Rules @ JazzJackrabbit.net

Digital Existence Network reserves the right to disallowed individual users to connecting to our resources for any reason, for example: They have been attempting to damage or degrade the service that will affect other users.

Thats the current standing from Digiex Admins view. Although that only affects the European List Server.
A Digiex ban would be done at our gateway, and would stop any connections from there IP accessing any of our servers which include our website, gameservers, list server, ftp etc. Its a global ban.

I think that hate/insutling/pa'ing servers should be removed immediatly, the serverlists are the not the way to spread Hate/Racism/Homophobia/Sexism. On the note of administration, I think that ANY admin should discuss a banning with other admins, and they should come up with a final group decision, but that isn't a problem at all, at the moment.

I also think that people who laser in servers, or attempt to 'crash' a server in ANY way, should be issued with a warning, or banned for a limited time, if serious.

Thats about it, thanks.

I do not think servers with an insulting name should be put down. After all, it has always been that way, and I personally like to keep the way the list servers existed until now (except for the advanced features etc, ofcourse).

Originally Posted by ChavRashGPW

I think that hate/insutling/pa'ing servers should be removed immediatly, the serverlists are the not the way to spread Hate/Racism/Homophobia/Sexism. On the note of administration, I think that ANY admin should discuss a banning with other admins, and they should come up with a final group decision, but that isn't a problem at all, at the moment.

I also think that people who laser in servers, or attempt to 'crash' a server in ANY way, should be issued with a warning, or banned for a limited time, if serious.

Thats about it, thanks.

I share the same view with you.
I also think that bans should be temporary, and should be only used for serious manners ( List hacking attempts for example).

No one, not from epic games deserves to play the boss off jj2 imo

I think it depends on how severe the PA is, and if it involves private matters of the insulted person, or not. And IMO it's each serverlist admin's own responsibility and choice what to do with it.

Putting people in control seemed like a good idea at first, but I have seen way too many mentions of banning people from the list servers to appreciate the situation. I'm all for no moderation.

I expressed my views with you in #jj2, but I'll repost them here.

1. Remove Obscene servers to a point (A server with a swear word in it should probably stay up, because its harming nobody, but a server with a swear word directed at another user should be delisted because its a personal attack)
2. Racist/Sexist/Homophobic/Facist servers should get delisted, but you probably should have a talk with the server and ask why he/she would host this and perhaps warn him/her of harsher consequences next time.
3. Pinging, unplayable servers meant to broadcast hate/PA messages or just advertisements (i.e. for a website) should be delisted.
4. Servers containing vulgar, inappropriate material such as anything that would be considered illegal irl (like child/animal) porn should be nuked, and you should also consider giving the host a warning/temporary ban from listservers. (Although who would host something like that on a bunny game anyways?)
5. Servers that crashed/closed but are still up on the listserver as pinging should be delisted.

lalalala.

Originally Posted by Unknown Rabbit

Putting people in control seemed like a good idea at first, but I have seen way too many mentions of banning people from the list servers to appreciate the situation. I'm all for no moderation.

All over this post, I've so badly stressed against banning... Yet some people still think otherwise.

I think i quite clearly suggested no one should be banned from getting the games in progress ever, but perhaps if someone constantly put up fake servers using some tool, used to attack someone, perhaps there IP should be disabled from LISTING games on the public lists. I think thats the only time I would consider it.

Originally Posted by Blackraptor

I expressed my views with you in #jj2, but I'll repost them here.

1. Remove Obscene servers to a point (A server with a swear word in it should probably stay up, because its harming nobody, but a server with a swear word directed at another user should be delisted because its a personal attack)
2. Racist/Sexist/Homophobic/Facist servers should get delisted, but you probably should have a talk with the server and ask why he/she would host this and perhaps warn him/her of harsher consequences next time.
3. Pinging, unplayable servers meant to broadcast hate/PA messages or just advertisements (i.e. for a website) should be delisted.
4. Servers containing vulgar, inappropriate material such as anything that would be considered illegal irl (like child/animal) porn should be nuked, and you should also consider giving the host a warning/temporary ban from listservers. (Although who would host something like that on a bunny game anyways?)
5. Servers that crashed/closed but are still up on the listserver as pinging should be delisted.

lalalala.

I agree with his points.

And idd, banning shouldn't be done unless someone keeps doing it over and over..

Hmm, no. For 6 years the listservers have been doing fine, there is no need for them to be controlled now. The worst thing apparently that can happen in the server is people lazering other people. Well, that's what the server host is for, to ban them. I especially don't want JJ2 to turn out like JCF censorship or something. The people should have control over their own acts, and be smart to know what is right and wrong.

So I don't like this community control of the list server network.

List server control should only be used in two situations. As Nimrod said, if it is illegal to list a server because of its name, the server should have its name changed or should be delisted. Repeat offenders could be banned from listing servers, but only after reasonably being requested to stop.

If someone is purposely performing any kind of denial of service attack on the list server, or any other malicious activity directed toward the list server, they should be asked to stop, and if they don't, they should be banned. It is up to the operator to decide what constitutes malicious activity, but it should be reasonable.

Activity within games is entirely the responsibilities of the game hosts and clients (and to some extent their internet service providers). The list server operator should not take action for anything that happens within games, unless it is somehow causing problems for the list server.

*agrees with Link*

Originally Posted by JJ Tublear

For 6 years the listservers have been doing fine, there is no need for them to be controlled now.

Doing fine?
Dont you remember how the DLL or DDL or whatever there called managed to bring down a list server by DoS'ing it, Dont you remember how people hosted dead servers for the use of advertising there site?

It needs a system. People seem to always hate systems but without a system everything would go to **** like it has been.

The fact that we now have the ability to protect ourselfs from that, is great. Its something we only recently have been able to do.


Also into regards to server names, I've been doing some research and require to inform you that any server listed on the uk(european) list server, must follow in with UK laws. (Same as the american one, with US laws). Hate, inregards to Racism, Homophobia and Sexism is illegal, and any server with a name to fit would have to be removed by an admin, if not, Digiex could be held for promoting hate. Now we have the power to remove servers like this, it would be wrong not to act.

Hmm, ok, I guess you're right. If servers that only meet these standards get banned, then that's fine I suppose. But DDL were really a bunch of foos, and most of the time they lied about some of the stuff that they said they would do.

This may be long, but I want to explain it in as much detail as possible so that it can be as clear as possible.



Maintaining the Service
Obviously, the primary function of the JJ2 list server is to list the current JJ2 game servers so that they can be retrieved by JJ2 clients. Therefore the primary objective is to keep the service working and available to all. If an identifiable source happened to be exploiting the service in such a way that disallowed others to use it, then that source should somehow be disallowed to make use of the exploit, preferably in the most minimal way possible. For example, if someone was performing a DoS attack on the server, and the attack was such that others couldn't use the server, then it would be right to ban the attacker. But only for the duration of the attack, because once the server is no longer being actively threatened, it should fully return to it's purpose of being available for use.

Dead Servers
The list server was made for the purpose of listing games so people could join them. So, if a server proves to be un-joinable (assuming you knew the password, if it was passworded), then it has lost it's reason to be listed, and should be removed. Of course the possible game server should be given ample time to prove that it's un-joinable, so for example the timeout time should be something about a minute.

Game Server Names
Unless a game server's name has somehow impaired the service, be it for the servers or the games, a game server's name should remain unaltered so as to maintain the consistency of the service. In the case that a game server name somehow interferes with the service, it should be altered only so far as it needs to in order for it to no longer be an interference. For example, a game server name contains some special characters that mess up the list. Only the special characters need to be removed for the list to no longer be messed up, so that would be the appropriate course of action whereas de-listing the game server would be too much.

Blank Server Names
(I felt it necessary to address this specifically because it is kind of an odd case, and the issue has come up.)
Game servers with a name that appears blank (may it be just a space, or a color code (pipe: | ), or something else otherwise valid) should be left unaltered. It is allowed by the game from both the server and client ends, and so the service remains unhindered.

Legality
It is necessary for the service to remain within legal bounds because otherwise it could be shut down by legal action. Laws that are applicable to the service should be gathered and posted so anyone can easily read them. Administrators of the service should also have a clear understanding of how the laws apply to the service, and possibly should post their understandings as well. Again, whatever needs to be altered should be altered only as far as it needs to.

Working as a Network
The list server service was made to work as a network of list servers. All servers must maintain the same set of rules/protocols/whatever, because otherwise the network will fall apart. Using the previous section to expand upon this, if one server must obey a certain set of laws, all other servers must obey that same set of laws, even if they would otherwise not be bound by those laws. If any server in the network does not agree to and abide by the rules/protocols of the rest of the network, then that server must be removed from the network.



You'll notice there's nothing there about personal attack servers. Nothing besides server names should remain as unaltered as possible. The reason for this is because personal attacks have nothing to do with the functionality of the service. Think about this: even if someone was un-allowed to put their personal attack in the name of their game server, they could still host a public server and make the attack in there. Even if they weren't allowed to list that server, they could go on some other game server. If the attacker wanted to, they could make a website, post everywhere they could, send out emails, write letters, yell in the background on some public television, go downtown with a megaphone, go to the person's house, or any number of other things to attack whoever they're attacking. My point is, making some effort to prevent people from naming their servers in a personal attack manner wouldn't be worth it. Plus it would give the administrators too much of a grey-area to work with -- deciding if something is really a personal attack or not, and how severe it is.

Anyway.. there you go.

Well I was going to write a nice reply to this thread but my thoughts are exactly the same as Mono's so I need not be redundant right now.

I guess I misunderstood Nimrod, I think I agree with him, but taking down servers just because they have swear words in the name or something is ridiculous.

Disablding someone from listing a server because he tries to bring down the server would be okay, though. Taking down servers that in some way hinder the listserver from staying online without problems too.

they just should take down servers, only if they try something related to crashing the listservers or whatever, and just a question, why are there so many people who have power about this ?

Originally Posted by $tilettø

they just should take down servers, only if they try something related to crashing the listservers or whatever, and just a question, why are there so many people who have power about this ?

people think its _cool_ to have control over 50 players in this scene.

I think only servers breaking the law or pinging should be removed. This includes any unjoinable server, especially ones just there to slur someone.

I am all for all of these things, except the banning. No one should be completely unable to play JJ2 online. If you simply must have a banning system, I'd suggest making it a timeban.

Originally Posted by ShadowGPW

people think its _cool_ to have control over 50 players in this scene.

Yet again you show your maturity, by coming into a thread asking for peoples views and ideas on what should and shouldnt be done, yet end up just flaming.

Originally Posted by $tilettø

they just should take down servers, only if they try something related to crashing the listservers or whatever, and just a question, why are there so many people who have power about this ?

That's what I've been saying.

The reason we have quite a few admins, is with a certain number of bugs in the current BETA list server software, a lot of list servers get stuck and dont de-list, about 3 or so an hour. We need people in different time zones to do the job of clearing it up. So there doing hardwork, to ensure you dont get 4-5 pages of pinging servers.

Yeah, pretty much everyone is against that banning idea. I am too, I'd say do away with it if It's possible.

Nimrod.. he isnt flaming, relax. and so many admins.. it just gives OTHER people too many power.. it really isnt neccesary.. find out a way to delete pinging servers automaticly or whatever

before digiex took control it was kinda fine, but not really .. since some people were trying to crash the list servers, Ok. but does pinging servers hurt? and in which way ? now.. just too many people who have control..

To many people may have control now, because the network needs admins to keep it alive at the moment, with the current bugs.

Im working with Nebula, and were replacing admins slowly with automated systems, that can de-list dead / pinging servers, detect DoS attempts and take action etc.

Originally Posted by Trafton

I think only servers breaking the law or pinging should be removed. This includes any unjoinable server, especially ones just there to slur someone.

Exactly. I think no more and no less control than what Trafton said should be exercised over the servers, and that the ban feature need not ever be used. Also, I don't think server names that are personal attacks need to be removed because it's not a big deal and I, too, don't want the list servers to be censored like the JCF currently is (but many of the posts I read seem to be asking for just that).

^^^

I might possibly hold rank 1 for most edited posts. And then again I asked to be edited in some posts, most other posts..I didn't...they were plain stupid edits.

And that's what I said earlier, Pyro, that I didn't want the list server to become like the JCF.

I forgot to say this earlier - if there is some form of filter, make it GOOD. Don't make it like the JCF's which filters "Chronicles of Rid****".

^^^

Oh, you mean like **** Tracy?

Don't make a filter at all.

A Filter would be a bad idea and I have already said no when someone suggested it to me on MSN. It would filter out many legit server names which dont mean offence.

^^^

Filters suck anyway. I'm glad that It's not going to be implemented.

I share Mono's opinion on the rules. I had a larger msg typed up but this comp decided to faint so it got lost.

Originally Posted by Nimrod

A Filter would be a bad idea and I have already said no when someone suggested it to me on MSN. It would filter out many legit server names which dont mean offence.

That's good. I think the only thing you should use your newly created powers for is to protect yourselves from legal action and hackers. Otherwise leave the list servers as they always have been, with the exception of possible upgrades, of course.