So, I've been hearing a lot about Slayer cheating. There have been a few cheaters I remember, even some who were suspected of cheating, but they were never proven.

The way I see it, the resources for cheating on jj2 don't require much effort to obtain. We trust people to be "nice" and follow the rules, even rules that aren't really stated (cough).

I think the ones who make the programs are a bit responsible for making the programs available. This is a crude comparison, but you're obviously not going to obtain classified information of any sort with ease (some exceptions however). While many things can be used as weapons, you're obviously not going to find a gun readily available at a market. While cheating on a rabbit game doesn't put any people's lives at risk, it certainly is wrong and shouldn't happen. So if that's the case, why make those programs readily available?

There are programs on j2o some consider to be wrongful, yet they are there. I'm interested on what you all think of that.

I once made a "killsteal" cheat program. Never used it beyond testing it and making sure it worked, but as a concept, it wasn't that hard. Monitor people's health and inv status, wait for 1 or 2 health, no inv, then warp to their position and shoot a golden seeker.

The reason we don't cheat is because it takes all the fun out of it. Imagine I used my program! I get the highest score, but at what cost? Everyone hates me, no one wants to play with me, word gets around that I'm a cheating cheater that cheats, I have no fun, and anyone on any server I play on has no fun.

Uh, I was going somewhere with this, but now my fingers are cold.

There are programs on j2o some consider to be wrongful, yet they are there. I'm interested on what you all think of that.

Yes but if you choose rating over 8 at utility then you will get surprised of what programs are .

Also Cheating isn't even good ! Firstly if you cheat , server is crashing or doing lag , then you get
ban . If you play in ladder with cheats , then ban from the site and zeal duel server !
And if you're just a victim of an attack cheat , your jazz2 is gonna slow !
What should i say ? NEVER ChEAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well I don't want to be repeating myself but ya, I would agree the programmers themselves are a tad bit responsible. And by a tad bit I actually mean a lot

The way I see it, there are some people on jj2 (FS included) who, and I might be wrong about this, don't even think in terms of cheating. I wouldn't go so far as to say that these people are just "too dumb" to come up with their own cheats, it's just the thought never crossed their mind. I would include myself in this group as well (although to be quite honest, seeing as how the pinnacle of my programming career is to use an if function in excel I also fall in the group of people who are incapable of creating a cheat program).

I really have mixed feelings about this. I feel very uneasy that some people who play the game competitively are so enthralled by "cheats" as well, and although they are good friends of mine, I can't say I support them in their actions.

People like overlord made cheats and used them, but mainly in their own servers. Now I know Overlord was no saint, because I do believe he made his cheats available as well. But those cheats were obvious to every1, and although they were annoying, they didn't have any impact on the competitive scene (to my knowledge).

The thing with radars is different, the whole point of having this radar cheat is for you to have it and the rest to get "pwnt" by you because they don't have it (except on maps like DW where if you control the seek PU they aren't able to do anything to counter you anyway even with the radar). And supposedly making a radar prog is pretty easy. Gry told me he saw overlord make one ages ago.

Anyway, however much I like that we caught RL with the help of a young prodigy and however much I find the guy kinda likeable, I will always be in favour of very draconian measures when cheating and cheaters are concerned.

Screw it, I guess I'm a republican that way.

The responsibility lies with the cheater. Sure, it might be easy to download an app that allows you to cheat, but the cheater is still the one making the decision to use it.

Wow, it reminds me the difference between common morality and morality in politics.

Let's say you are the major of a city, and you have to choose whether or not to let a casino be built in the centre of the city. You know that letting it be done would have pros and cons: from one side, the economy of your city will be boosted; from the other side, game of chance will start spreading in your town, which will cause some of your beloved citizens to spend a big part of their money in gambles. The problem is: what's your effective responsibility for the negative effects if you decide this way?
Well, let's say that in this case, every 1000 people, 10 of them will frequent the casino; of these 10 people, 3 were already addicted to games of chance (other casinos from other cities, private clubs...), while the other 7 will start gambling only after its construction (Obviously a major can't know this from the beginning, it's just an example).
Those 7 people are obviously directly responsible for their own behaviour, because they consciously choose to frequent the casino and thus will pay any consequence that may result from this. But also your choice makes a big difference: if you don't allow the construction, those 7 people will most probably never start gambling. So, you have an indirect responsibility for these negative consequences.

I think it's quite the same here: cheating cheaters who cheat are directly responsible for cheating, but the programmer isn't completely innocent. He's indirectly his fault for all of the players that wouldn't have cheated without his program at all. (That's why I decided to ask the community first, when it was my time to do it)

By the way, don't cheat. I warned you.

there have been wuite alot cheat progs in the past for jj2 . like jazz advantadge etc and asd in the past .


but for people who still think cheating is to get better . it makes u weak


for the people that have a bit slower connections and whine some people cheat stop whining


for the people that just suck and say people cheat to win cause they cant just win anything . try getting better instead of whining . if u got proof someone cheated . then just report or screen it or use something like camstasia studios to record it (camstasia studios . the thing that got StarFox screwed)

@WhiteBlaster: Awesome reply. You nailed it with indirect responsibility.
@Stijn: No. Why? Read WhiteBlaster's post.

EDIT: I want to take some reputation from you for your relatively absolutist view on this matter Stijn, yet it would seem that I have given you too much reputation already and that I should spread it around a bit. Funny, cuz I was about to take some of the love I gave you and this darn system wont stand for it

I read WhiteBlaster's post, but I don't agree with it.

Hammers can be used to kill people. Therefore, the inventor of the hammer was responsible for thousands of hammer-related deaths.

I think that if a tool has any purpose at all besides the "bad" ones, it's fine. If someone does use it to cheat, so what? Ban them from your server. Maybe ban them from the list server altogether if they're annoying enough. This extends to the password remover, the resolution changer, and dynamite.

That's cuz you mention a hammer. A cheat is more like a weapon in which case the creator is partially responsible.

Everything pushed to an extreme can be lethal. But a weapon doesn't need to be "overused" to kill. Nor is a radar the same as a hammer. It is, by nature, vile and corrupt, whereas a hammer is useful and can only through ill intentions or plain stupidity be used to injure others.

For instance, medicine. While they are used for healing, overdoses can be deadly.

I disagree with the indirect responsibility. A human has the ability to consider, calculate, recalculate and estimate the consequences of their decision. If they consider what might happen when using such an advanced cheating problem, and still decide to request the program/make use of it, I call it a corrupt mind. Just evil. Especially considering we got flamed at by the cheaters.. Wait, what? They want to cheat without getting punished? That must be an upside down world.

Now, isn't this the decision made by the cheaters for the full 100% and they should take the full responsbility?

And if you still disagree: Think of it as the Netherlands. Smoking weed is tolerated here. That however doesn't mean a lot of the Dutch actually smoke weed. It is the peoples own decision if they do so or not. The Dutch government rarely (if ever at all) gets involved, even though this matter obviously causes a lot of public discussions.

The only thing they get involved with, is catching the ones who grow too much cannabis to make profit out of it. That is illegal in the Netherlands . (And that is what we've been doing. We've been catching the guys that cheated for their own advantage, profit).

Fyi, the code which Artem created to catch RL, is extremely powerful. Take a look at this, I've been testing all options:

[2011.01.09 21:41:08] Winsock ID: 459; IP: 188.141.59.78; Name: VègîtõÇÇ|Ç; Arrow Cheat: No; Enemy h Cheat: No; HIOK Cheat: No; Cloud Cheat: No; Cheater's team h Cheat: No; Radar Window is Opened: No; Main Cheat Window is opened: Ye; Unlimited Ammo: Ye; Anti Blackscreen: No; Sugar Rush: No; 1.23: No; Resolution: 640x480; Max Resolution: 640x480

It searches for tons of things. This code shall probably be used to create a new program that checks if players are cheating. An anti cheat program/script, sort of . This will help prevent cheating in the future . The one creating the cheat, creates the catcher as well, and makes it more advanced so all kinds of cheats will be seen

Ya but smoking weed doesn't affect others unless they're hypocrite pricks.

Here other people get hit by "negative externalia" of the actions of the cheater. Which wouldn't be possible had the cheats not been made. Yes, idealistic mayhaps, but I think you can't deny the responsibility of the one who made the cheat completely.

In the case of RL and artem I suppose two of a kind got together - both unpopular with the community and both with certain qualities the other needed. So don't act as if it wasn't completely conscious from both parties. And artem started cooperating only after he was no longer a member. Imagine him being the co-leader, RL might have well wiggled their way into the finals of jj2wc and with a bit of luck ousted even CC.
Just because at a certain point in history luck would have it that young Artem left RA/RL and felt maybe a wee bit bitter about everything, therefore deciding to get back at his former partners in crime doesn't out of a sudden make him a saint for turning his ex-compadres to the law enforcement. History could well have taken a different route. Someone somewhere usually squeals though, which is good for us, so that the cheaters can get at least a fair dose of ex-post punishment, which doesn't change all the wrongful events that occured because of cheating during the past.

And to go back to the analogy of weapons, well if anyone thinks that somebody (or even a civilization) which makes weapons isn't responsible for using them, here's what chancellor Bismarck had to say on the matter:" You don't have armies and then not use them, you have armies to send them to war." Poor translation, but nvm. Same goes for cheats. Are you going to honestly tell me that somebody who made a cheat didn't know somebody would use it in some form or other? Please, what kind of world do you live in?

You know, among the economists the phrase "There's no free lunch" is often used, yet rarely properly understood. Thing is, you might have legal instruments which make possible that an entity or a person only has limited responsibility for its actions. Furthermore you might have a system in which social costs occur yet the private party responsible for those costs doesn't pay for them (due to a legal system which allows such actions), which is basically how capitalism operates. You get private benefits but no one gives a damn about the social costs that outweigh the private costs. But universe is a bitch, and she doesn't take kindly to any other laws but the laws of physics and eventually those costs start to show somewhere and everybody has to foot the bill of some greedy bastards who didn't know when to stop.
Be it in form of natural disasters, wars (as per Bismarcks argument which basically says that if you have an economy geared towards making weapons you need to have wars to sustain it, case in point are the US) but the system will eventually recalibrate itself. And the actors who acted without thinking were in the least part of the disequilibrium, that is something they can't escape from no matter how much they'd like to try.

After creating the nuclear bomb Oppenheimer quoted an old hindu text saying: " I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."

He didn't say it with glee but with sorrow. Maybe he didn't have a say in the matter, maybe it was predetermined that he would created this device of destruction, who knows, the point is, he knew fully well what hell he helped unleash onto the world. And simply absolving him of all guilt is wrong. I'm not saying Oppenheimer is a bad man. He was a smart person, who worked on a project that ended up creating a nuclear bomb. He had to have been conscious of what he was up to. Deep inside he had to have known his work would lead to mass destruction.

For if that is the way the game is to be played, if Oppenheimer was indeed not guilty, well then, we can take this relativism ad infinitum. And you won't even hear me complain about this. But since most of us tend to have certain views which are in a manner of speaking absolute, such a resolution is improbable. in which case we can't say that Oppenheimer had nothing to do with the events which lead to the dropping of 2 nuclear devices on Japan. It was all the fault of those evil aeroplane pilots. But wait, was it not the fault of their bosses, all they did was follow rules, right? And was it not then the fault of the big bwana, the president of the US that the bombs were dropped? And he had to drop them because of Hitler and the japs being all agressive. They got agressive because the economic system failed to produce the results expected of it which lead to the need of governments to invest their money on public works and their armies. Had the 1929 crisis not occured Hitler would have been only a marginal political figure in Germany and maybe Oppenheimer would have made the nuclear weapon for the Germans. Probably a decade or two later. Hell he would probably have died before.

It's either all about circumstances or all about responsibility.
Or you can be in between and expect people to take at least partial responsibility in which case there is no way in hell you can say the that the person who made the cheating program is out of a sudden completely off the hook. Because he most definitely is not.

SHIT, could it be any longer?

Yes, it could.

A Latin proverb says: "Poison lies in quantity"
If inhaled, carbon monoxide is very toxic, but if you breathe 2 molecules of it, you won't even notice it (Captain Obvious!).
Water isn't toxic at all (in fact it's necessary for life), but if you drink 1000 Litres of water in one day, maybe you won't die, but you'll surely feel sick.

Weapons and hammers are good to explain this. Hammers are very useful and essential in many cases, and this is their use for good purposes; they can also be used to hurt other people, though. Flame throwers are very dangerous weapons, but no one says you can't use them to make barbecue. People are evil, not objects.
Both can have good and bad uses, but in a (normal) supermarket you can buy a hammer, not a flame thrower. That's because it's obvious that hammers would be used mostly to drive in nails, while flame throwers would be used to kill people.
Weapons like rifles or pistols can be used in sports, but that doesn't mean you can own a weapon, unless you have a firearm certificate! (unless you're in Texas... but that is an example)

The point being? Cheats aren't an exception; there are good purposes for them, too, just use imagination. But when it's time to decide whether or not to make them accessible to everyone, you must make an estimation: what use will be done of your tool? Will it mostly be used for it primary purpose or not? Obviously, cheat programs are mostly used to cheat, so, according to this line of argument, putting them online means to indirectly (hey, heard that word before!) support cheating.

Why do I even bother? And why don't you reply sooner and save me the trouble?

You got incredible aim with that blaster of yours

Originally Posted by [GpW]Urbs

Why do I even bother? And why don't you reply sooner and save me the trouble?

You got incredible aim with that blaster of yours

Er... yeah, it's my peculiarity. I'm SLOW. And I'm also a perfectionist sometimes, so the two things stack on each other. That's why I never uploaded any levelpack to J2O! I began creating one, but I never made it past the first level!
So, in any case, never wait for me to post. NEVER. It's wasting precious hours of your life.

By the way, remember what I just said, that people are evil, not objects? I was wrong.

don't worry, unlike you I just sort of type away and see what comes out.

Sometimes it's fairly good, but not always. My attitude is a bit better when I have to hand out something more formal. But even then only slightly

I started typing an explanation that radar had purposes besides locating aircraft to be shot down but then I realized you were referring to a cheat program called "radar."

Anyway, I don't think very many people would say that programs designed solely for cheating are a good thing to have around, though I can see the rationale for allowing them to be uploaded to J2O. The discussion is about programs that can be used for cheating but also have other purposes: higher resolutions are good-looking and can be useful for taking large-scale screenshots, a program that bypasses JCS passwords can get you back in to your own level you locked yourself out of. Even JJ2+ could be considered a cheating program since it gives players using it a few advantages such as the local seeker hole fix.
You have to decide on a cut-off. I personally think that people shouldn't have to go to a lot of trouble to get something they might need, so I think that anything with a non-cheating purpose should be allowed on J2O. People who really want to cheat will cheat anyway, and it's trivial to get rid of cheaters.

Note that I do not play competitively and I have never used non-standard resolutions in multiplayer. I did use cheat programs a lot at one point (at least seven years ago), but I don't recall ever doing so without the host's approval.

And now what if the creator of the cheating tool, creates the "catcher" as well?
So the tool can only be used with permission and otherwise we can simple *SEE* them using cheats?

Cause that's what we're talking about right now.

In my opinion it is obvious. I recommend to look for the answer to your question in google.com

No man, the answer to everything is 42.

Originally Posted by ivo

You can block it from connecting.

And then it would refuse to work?

Ahh hunter joins the game

Oh, I've catched atleast 10.000 of cheaters in my past carrier as a ClanBase and ESL Administrator. Best weapon against cheats is the cheat itself in combination with a replay/demo. So naturally I'm against any form of cheating.

Obiviously cheating in an online environment is never a good thing. It rips the game community apart and eventually the community bleeds to a complete death. But for some reason, it's pretty natural that things like this happen, even in JJ2. Because cheating is something that happens in almost every competitive environment. School, Work, Sports and eSports, it's in the human nature to find an easier way to achieve your goals.

Catching the programmers is hard and you barely are able to ''fight'' against them anyway. By making it, they already show that they don't really care. Some do everything to defend themselfs and actually make programs that are harder to combat against or makes a program that uses rotating algoritmes in which it makes it almost impossible to catch and even if you ''catch'' them. They don't care, he has nothing to lose! So fighting up to the source is futile. Because most of the time you just feed his satisfaction or the fight is just pointless.

Ofcourse you want to go to his house and vanish this person from the Internet but that is not how the world works and you have to deal with it.

So keep your focus and energy on the people that use cheating programs. They do care about their online status as a player in a community. Otherwise they wouldn't have used cheats if they didn't, they want to win by any means necessary.

The only problem is, as an anti-cheater, you always walk behind the facts, because ''someone else'' always made a newer program that behaves differently. So every time you have to start over from A to B.

So yes, as I've said before; I think you should focus on the player. Let me give you a real life example of why; If you go to a shop and buy a gun (and all papers are fine) and you shoot someone with THAT gun. The shop isn't responsable for it, only you. Because you still have the choice if you use that gun or not.

The responsibility lies with the cheater. Sure, it might be easy to download an app that allows you to cheat, but the cheater is still the one making the decision to use it.

Whoops, I missed Stijn's post. He's completely right in here. I'm saying exactly the same. ;P

Wow, a wall of text.

I haven't done that in this community for a while.

Originally Posted by ivo

Edit: if it doesn't start when impossible to connect, then why log uses instead of disabling it for everyone by putting the script off-line?

What?

Originally Posted by ShadowGPW

Wow, a wall of text.

I haven't done that in this community for a while.

And then to find out Stijn said the exact same using 2 sentences only

Cheating or better said creating cheating applications is the best way to lern how to read or write out / in JJ2's memory, i think the most programmers in the community started with cheating programs, because they are easy to write and you see fast a nice (...) result.

The problem is that the creaters of cheating programs sharing it to other ones...

So short:
Cheating for Lerning is the best you can do whatever for a game you are palying, using created applications by other players for cheating is the worst.

Originally Posted by Sfaizst

Cheating or better said creating cheating applications is the best way to lern how to read or write out / in JJ2's memory, i think the most programmers in the community started with cheating programs, because they are easy to write and you see fast a nice (...) result.

The problem is that the creaters of cheating programs sharing it to other ones...

So short:
Cheating for Lerning is the best you can do whatever for a game you are palying, using created applications by other players for cheating is the worst.

There is a significant difference between cheating and development. I'm just saying.

Thx, Shad. Finally a truly useful post in this thread

As Woody Allen would say,the RLers are not cheaters,they are just the Loyal Opposition.

ANA KNOWS/QUOTES WOODY!
i luvz u even more

Alright,I was inactive for a week,and a lot of things happened.

Summary please?

It's just not worth reading all this D:

Originally Posted by ShakerNL

It's just not worth reading all this D:

then why did you comment?

An obvious reply to Lithiums question. And I think he also referred to the 300 comments at jj.net

A server is controlled by the host, I know when you as a non-cheater join a game you don't want to play with cheaters, but you can also host a server and control who enters and leaves. Cheating is the fault of an irresponsible host; any host minding any attention to the players can ban a cheater at will (or let players cheat). Even cheaters who want to cheat need a place for that.

This is barring the possibility of external cheating. Like I said, a cheater is confined to the server they are playing in.

Originally Posted by Vegito

An obvious reply to Lithiums question. And I think he also referred to the 300 comments at jj.net

Yay for the 300 comments,and all for the week I wasn't here.

[gg] [/gg]