I wonder why epic won't do the following:

"We are now allowing the freeware download of our software Jazz Jackrabbit 2 and Jazz Jackrabbit 2: The Secret Files. We cannot suplly the game because we have lost it from our servers, and no technical support will be offered. All characters, music, and all portions of the game are still legally owned by us and we may withdraw the game from freeware status at any time."

I think I dreamed something about this... More legal garbage would be necessary but it would possibly work. I am quite sure a game can be freeware but you still retain all rights to it.

Because, they don't care enough to do that.

It seems like too much work for too old a product, which may potentially have a future, though increasingly unlikely.

But from the other side, it could increase trust in Epic to support their products. Playing Devil's Advocate: "I won't buy unreal because in a couple of years, they may ignore me and my game! I'll go buy Halo instead."

By releasing such an old game, they could perhaps increase profit with proof of more support.

That may work if anyone at all but a few thousand cared about Jazz Jackrabbit 2. Compared to the (potential) Unreal userbase, we're microbes.

Most people aren't going to think of Jazz Jackrabbit before they buy Unreal.

True, but 1000 times $60.00 is 60 000 dollars. That's a good increase. And it's not like they will not be able to make a 3rd game if they suddenly wanted too. They just retract the freeware license. I believe Sierra did that with Betrayal at Krondor.

Why not have Pigs fly while we're at it?

It *could* happen, for example Rockstar released GTA as freeware too.

GTA is the first in a highly popular series, keywords here? "Highly popular"

Also considering, the only old Epic game that is freeware is OMF, theres a very slim chance Jazz will be released as freeware.

I'm just saying it would be possible, some commercial games get released as freeware. Not that it would be likely at all to happen for jj2.

I only brought this up as a discussion over why or why not. Sarcastic remarks aren't needed.

Originally Posted by ZAPPER

I only brought this up as a discussion over why or why not. Sarcastic remarks aren't needed.

But it details why I believe WHY NOT.

Look arond; how many old games do you see being released? Not many, even long dead ones like Commander Keen or JotJ; businesses tend to be lazy and not do anything unles there is a large reward. A relevant view from epic might be:

'Why should we do this? What do we get out of it except a few green bunny freaks get a bit happier? Call me when we can sell the game to microsoft."

Originally Posted by n00b

GTA is the first in a highly popular series, keywords here? "Highly popular"

Also considering, the only old Epic game that is freeware is OMF, theres a very slim chance Jazz will be released as freeware.

Wrong: Epic's very first game, ZZT, is freeware as well. Also, Epic did not make OMF freeware because Epic was just the publisher: the game itself was created by Diversions Entertainment, who made it freeware somewhere around 2000.

- JelZe GoldRabbit =:3

So it's still only 1 freeware game, except now it's the oldest game they released...

Originally Posted by JelZe GoldRabbit

Wrong: Epic's very first game, ZZT, is freeware as well. Also, Epic did not make OMF freeware because Epic was just the publisher: the game itself was created by Diversions Entertainment, who made it freeware somewhere around 2000.

- JelZe GoldRabbit =:3

In that case, we should drop this discussion and start to bug Guriella Games as well, since they did the majority of the coding back as Orange games.

You all have to remember that Epic had redirected the official listserver domain to the working fan made one, and that proves that Epic does care a little about us Jazz fans. Epic Games is a company that is still in the world because of the money it gets from the things they do. So it's pretty normal that they wouldn't pay much of their attention to a thing that doesn't make any money. And developers like Arjan, Cliffy, and Dean are still in love with our mean green hare, the only thing is that they all have more important things to do in their life now, like other developements. But I believe that there will be a third Jazz game someday, the best person we can count on is Cliffy, as he is interested in it and he works for Epic. Just check EpicGames.com once a year for a Jazz3 newsflash lol.

It's still selling last time I checked..

We can actually say that the JJ games are abandonwares. Epic Games has already abandoned them and the offical website of JJ was closed. Moreover, Project 2 went bankrupt.

Originally Posted by Biao Wraind

We can actually say that the JJ games are abandonwares. Epic Games has already abandoned them and the offical website of JJ was closed. Moreover, Project 2 went bankrupt.

Originally Posted by JelZe GoldRabbit

Abandonware
Contrary to popular belief, "Abandonware" is not Freeware, at least not all of it (I'd say a fairly smal part)! In fact, there's no such thing as "Abandonware." People like to think that when the support for a game suddenly stops, it's freeware. Although it is true that freeware games hardly have customer support (if any) from the original company, that doesn't go the other way around! Games, even "abandoned", still fall under copyright laws and Terms of Service no matter how old they are, thus making them illegal to spread around, unless they've been declared freeware.

...

Legalize it...

Legalize theft?

Originally Posted by KRSplat

Legalize theft?

Could he have been any more clear?

"It" is not the most clear word to use to refer to things!!! :P

Can't we just upload it on j2o?

not rly

Originally Posted by Anubis

Can't we just upload it on j2o?

No, for several reasons. The most important reason is that it's still copyrighted material owned by Epic, and if they don't shut us down, surely our provider will for the same reason we don't link to any "abandonware" sites. Fan-made Tools for JJ1 and conversions of some of the content is still OK in case you're wondering, as long as we don't spread the real thing or a look-a-like clone.

For the last time, "abandonware" is a fan term for games that are old (at least 3 years, some prefer 7) and have no significant support (thus "abandoned"). It still does not mean it's freeware, because the original creator can still decide to sell it again. Look at Nintendo and Sega.

Secondly: the game's far too big for one single download. Mine came on 5 diskettes

- JelZe GoldRabbit =:3

Five diskettes from 1994 is not that much space :P

Also I was referring to abandonware >:(

Comparing downloading copyrighted material to heft is soooo wrong. Somewhat reasonable would be to compare it with... walking into the store and copying a chocolate bar, then walk out with that - because really - you don't steal anything, and it doesn't actually hurt the company in any way.

Originally Posted by Grytolle

Comparing downloading copyrighted material to heft is soooo wrong. Somewhat reasonable would be to compare it with... walking into the store and copying a chocolate bar, then walk out with that - because really - you don't steal anything, and it doesn't actually hurt the company in any way.

Let me tell you a story...

This is a story about a group of programmers. These programmers have a day job, but also work at night on a game. They spend many months working on this game, and finally finish it.

The game - let's call it Super Rocket Pro - does very well, and sells enough that the group of programmers give up their day job and form their own company. They then start work on the next version of it - Super Rocket Pro Advance.

They work day and night to create the new game, which is full of all sorts of new and wonderful things. They've given up their day jobs, but this isn't a problem as Super Rocket Pro is doing well, and the forums are growing so fast from new people getting the game that the programmers have had to pay for better web hosting twice.

One day, the lead programmer gets an urgent phonecall from his bank. It turns out that they are almost out of money, and have staggering debts. How can this be, he thinks, when Super Rocket Pro is doing so well and the forums are full of people who've only just got the game?

He calls an urgent meeting - this is a crisis, for unless they can find some more money they can't work on Super Rocket Pro Advance. During the meeting, the programmers have a look at the accounts.

They find that during the past month, only 20 copies of Super Rocket Pro have actually been sold. How can this be, they ask themselves? And they seperate, and each in their own way searches for an answer.

The junior programmers finds the truth first. All the hundreds and thousands of new players have downloaded the game, through Kazaa, through underground IRC channels, through dubious BitTorrent servers, from hidden FTP servers. Not one of them has actually bought the game.

But this discovery comes too late. The programmers must find new jobs, and work nights also to pay off the debts that built up. Super Rocket Pro Advance is abandoned, for not one of them sees the point in spending months of their own time on a game which won't feed them.



Now, I agree that copying a game is not the same as stealing a chocolate bar, but you are completely wrong when you say it doesn't hurt the company in any way. If the company doesn't earn money from selling the game, then the company can't afford to make new games.

I personally see nothing wrong with abandonware, when it is impossible to get the game through legitimate means (e.g. publisher/developer gone out of business or no longer interested in the game). Some developers even release the game for free once it ceases to be profitable (e.g. Quake, Warzone 2100). But if a game is still being sold, then, quite simply, it is not abandonware.

If you download something without having a license/copy of your own, you're not stealing any physical property. There are multiple kinds of property though, and physical property (a candy bar) is just one of them. Someone does not make an immediate loss through theft of software, since production costs required to make the stolen unit aren't being lost.

There is more than just production costs, though, fixed costs for example (research & manhours needed to create the game). These rely on enough units being sold to break-even... and maybe even profit in order to get a business running and to create future products. You may not be robbing the enterprise of money required to produce your copy, like with a candy bar, but you're (illegally) robbing them of various other things that matter just as much in today's economy.

Now, you can say that you wouldn't have bought the product anyways, so you're not robbing anyone of ANY money. You may not, but again, there's more than physical property these days, like intellectual property. Stealing that is still considered stealing, unfortunately.