Cooba, that screenshot still doesn't prove that it isn't someone faking Orbitz, that's what I meant.

I can only guess why are you defending Orbitz like your life depended on it.

Because giving him a life time ban, as I guess what Nimmy would prefer, is quite some serious matter...

Originally Posted by Grytolle

is quite some serious matter...

He deserves a ban longer than lifespan.

Originally Posted by Fquist

So much for the illusion of a listserver network with communication and clear rules between the listserver operators. You agreed to those rules, Nimrod, and badmouthing Monolith for following the rules you created with your listserver network instead of breaking them like you wish to do, is silly.

Yep, and he did what he was banned for originally, broken them again.

Originally Posted by Fquist

You cannot at one time badmouth the co-operator of the listservers and work together with him.

I never bad mouthed Monolith, I just merely said he needs to see the light, aka, see what the hell is going on in JJ2.

Originally Posted by Fquist

I'm not defending anyone here, and I object to the notion some spread that anyone who defends transparency and honesty and clear rules is defending anyone.

Sure you are, otherwise you wouldn't have replied. Your also implying he defends transparency and honestly, I highly object to that. He's not seeing the whole picture and for that he isnt defending transparency and honesty.

Originally Posted by Fquist

I have not had any good experience debating on these issues, ever, or being correctly represented in replies (usually people just throw in Straw Men in reply to my points on this topic), so I won't bother to reply to any points made in reply to this.

If your not prepared to reply to any points made, then theres no point even posting this is the first place. If you can't defend what you said, or admit you said wrong, dont post in the first place.

Originally Posted by FQuist

BTW, I would think Monolith is the only one who can confirm his server crashed. No single shred of evidence has been provided in this thread, too.

He told me his server was under attack by Orbitz, and he has blocked him from his JJ2 Server (but not his List Server). If you think I would lie about that, well first, thanks for the trust FQuist!! Secondly, ask him yourself.


The fact is, your annoyed by what I said clearly. But how else can I say it?

I want Orbitz banned, the majority of the community wants him banned. Theres one reason the ban isnt in place, and thats my fellow operator Monolith. I'm not going to come on here and lie and say "The ban isnt going ahead, we dont want it". I'm going to give you the truth as it is, I want the ban, Monolith doesnt. I feel angry at Monolith for his choice and can only hope myself and others can persuade him to ban Orbitz.

If it offends Monolith, or anyones bothered by the way I tell the truth. Well I'm sorry, I'm not going to lie to cover anyones back. It may not be nice, but I guess the truth can hurt.

Orbit'z is breaking the so called rules, he is damaging the network and also the networks clients. Without clients there would be no network. There is not one logic reason to allow him back.

So, why don't you wanna ban him Mono? I am sure you have a good reason

I can easily defend what I say, or back it up (except for the claim no evidence was provided, apparently Monolith provided one shred of evidence, I retract that claim and apologise). I simply won't bother to, since I prefer to not totally waste my time, since any claim I made will be twisted and tortured, and the only things replied to are straw men, things I've never implied. This has been obvious from your reply. From my reply, you've managed to adequately represent one argument, and the rest of your message doesn't reply to my points at all.

Obviously, anything I say here is a waste of time. It hasn't anything to do with not being able to defend my statements, but rather that, since my statements are never even replied to, I can hardly be bothered to defend them. I am not going to defend ghost statements I've never made.

From talking to Monolith, apparently Monolith isn't sure that it was Orbitz who flooded his server. I'll retract my retraction of the claim that no single bit of evidence has been provided in this thread for who has been crashing the servers. Anyone who demands a ban of Orbitz based on no single shred of evidence is being silly here.

Did I miss something here?

I thought Orbitz got banned originally for maliciously attacking JJ2 servers. The ban was for a limited time, and that time has passed. Monolith removed the ban (after being reminded), but Nimrod kept the ban (claiming that Orbitz hadn't changed, and would never change). Orbitz meanwhile has been asking (quite nicely, to begin with) for the ban to be lifted. Then there's a new flood of attacks on JJ2 servers, and suddenly everyone points fingers at Orbitz and calls for his head.

The funny thing is, I don't think I've seen any server logs that actually reveal the attacker as being Orbitz (and I'm pretty sure I've seen stuff implying others are responsible). Now did I miss a post here, or does no-one really know what's going on?

(feel free to correct me if I'm wrong anywhere - this is just what I think is going on)

(also, I'm not defending any attacks on JJ2 servers. But nor am I defending what appears to me to be power abuse)

You got it all right. This is a great time to crash servers and let Orbitz get the blame.

Originally Posted by Fquist

From talking to Monolith, apparently Monolith isn't sure that it was Orbitz who flooded his server. I'll retract my retraction of the claim that no single bit of evidence has been provided in this thread for who has been crashing the servers. Anyone who demands a ban of Orbitz based on no single shred of evidence is being silly here.

Your posts break the tables. Fix that plx.

Originally Posted by Grytolle

You got it all right. This is a great time to crash servers and let Orbitz get the blame.

Now this discussion is going on, it's easier for him to crash servers because people may think it was someone else.

And it was, since Orbitz sucks too much to exploit UF's gip-script?

Maybe it's Nimrod and UF themselves doing it. Conspiracy!

Seriously though, I agree with BoggyB and FQuist. Refusing to unban Orbitz when his ban period is expired and there is no evidence that he is currently doing anything is simply power abuse.

Hmmm... I dunno. These server crashings can be linked to RAD's so-called 'takeover' of the listservers last night. They re-named themselves to Orbitz. A perfect way not to get any blame.

Also, this is serious, they took the water out of a level as well. That must be hard to do too. Monolith's server was attacked by RAD, not Orbitz. AJazz is their ringleader so I'm definitely sure that if AJazz was banned when UNKNOWNFILE made the petition to, this wouldn't have happened.

About Madskills lifting the ban on Orbitz and Nimrod not lifting it, I'm not too sure on that one. But Nimrod, his ban is over, there hasn't been a petition, so lift it. Please.

Oh, and will you support Pest Eliminators? It's a team I'm making to protect the listservers.

Originally Posted by Link

Maybe it's Nimrod and UF themselves doing it. Conspiracy!

No. It's a guy called ThaSpaz and another guy called "Orbitz" whose real name is Adeel. And here's a little treat for all of you:


These are the tools used by our friends Orbitz and ThaSpaz, which I managed to obtain through a bribe. These tools are used for crashing, renaming, cheating and creating ghosts. Current packet analysis has proved inconclusive, and I will do a bit more testing later.

In the meantime, taco's.

Inconclusive of what?

All of those programs are fairly well-known.

As to how the packets they inject work.

Originally Posted by Link

Refusing to unban Orbitz when his ban period is expired and there is no evidence that he is currently doing anything is simply power abuse.

Orbitz was banned before he got a list ban from jazz.nimrod-online.com, he is also going to be banned well after his list ban.

Monolith, Fquist and many others are fully aware of this. He received a Digiex ban a long time before he received a network ban. He totally attacked my jj2 servers when I use to host them (until myself and Overlord made protection), and for that he has been banned from any resource at Digiex, and that includes the list which we host.

It hardly stops him from playing JJ2 if he really wanted, the whole idea of the list server's is to have a network. Not once have I stopped Madskills from having access to my list to mirror it, and for that Orbitz could play JJ2 if he wanted. He merely couldnt join my jj2 game server, or take advantage of a slighty faster list (closer to him).

I'm not going to spend hours finding a new way to ban Orbitz at my router which will allow him to access the list but nothing else, I actually like to protect my resources and won't spend hours of my own time trying to ensure one little kid who doesnt deserve anything can access my list, something that costs ME money to run.

A side effect of his behaviour meant he cant access my list, well fair enough, but due to my willingness to make the network open he isnt blocked from playing JJ2 as he can simply use Madskills.

So honest to god (mainly aimed at Link) if you call it power abuse that I like to protect my resources from someone who openly abuses them, I seriously urge you to provide a (-) good reason for this . At the end of the day, it costs me as it is, to run the List Server and its me who picks up its entire bill.

[Filter bypass edit. Please just let the filter do its job. - FQuist]
[I would love to let the Filter do its job, if you set it up correctly. -Nimrod]

Originally Posted by Nimrod

I'm not going to spend hours finding a new way to ban Orbitz at my router which will allow him to access the list but nothing else, I actually like to protect my resources and won't spend hours of my own time trying to ensure one little kid who doesnt deserve anything can access my list, something that costs ME money to run.

i agree with that

Originally Posted by Nimrod

So honest to god (mainly aimed at Link) if you call it power abuse that I like to protect my resources from someone who openly abuses them, I seriously urge you to provide a da`mn good reason for this . At the end of the day, it costs me as it is, to run the List Server and its me who picks up its entire bill.

I recognize this. I also apologize for arguing without knowing all of the facts.

In this thread, however, you did make a comment that sounded a bit like a threat to disconnect from Madskills. Also, regardless of the reasoning or nature of Orbitz's ban from your network, it is still effectively a ban from your list server. The most responsible action would be to find a way to allow him to access the list server (since it is a community service), but I can understand if you can't do this.

Originally Posted by UNKNOWNFILE

No. It's a guy called ThaSpaz and another guy called "Orbitz" whose real name is Adeel.

Adeel == Orbitz.

I said that >O

Originally Posted by UNKNOWNFILE

I said that >O

Oh, I thought you were saying that there was a guy named Adeel who was working under the guise of Orbitz. Or something.

It would be power abuse to not unban Orbitz from the network as a whole as promised, that's what we're talking about. Laws should not be applied retroactively, that is one of the fundamentals of ethics (sadly, some people here have a bit more machiavellian outlook on ethics). If you don't like the rules, deal with that earlier on.

Nimrod's banning people individually from his listserver is another issue, not really worrying, although it's unfortunate how untransparantly this is done. The worrying thing is how listserver administrators here apparently follow the belief that 'innocent until proven guilty' does not exist, that decisions about bans should not be made based on evidence, and that half the listserver crew would like to dump the rules that keep the listservers even remotely transparent ('remotely' since no serious attempts at transparency have been made before, with original official listservers being kicked out of the network without any proper outside announcement).

BoggyB: I don't think you've missed anything. Your assessment seems to be correct to me, sadly.

Originally Posted by Nimrod

...[Orbitz] received a Digiex ban a long time before he received a network ban. He totally attacked my jj2 servers when I use to host them (until myself and Overlord made protection), and for that he has been banned from any resource at Digiex, and that includes the list which we host.

...

I'm not going to spend hours finding a new way to ban Orbitz at my router which will allow him to access the list but nothing else, I actually like to protect my resources and won't spend hours of my own time trying to ensure one little kid who doesnt deserve anything can access my list, something that costs ME money to run.

This does change things. Given this, I have no objections to a continued ban for Orbitz from your network, as you are banning him because of attacks on your servers (which is a different case to banning him explicitly from the listservers). The fact doing so bans him from one of the listservers happens to be a side-effect of this, but I can understand your reasons better now. When it gets down to it, it's your server, and I can understand you taking steps to prevent attacks on your servers. However, you are providing a service to the community, and so you should at least keep people informed.


It would have helped matters if there had been more communication about this - until now I thought that he had been banned only from the listservers, and that he hadn't done anything to warrant an extension (not having seen anything posted either here or in the listserver community on livejournal). Perhaps there needs to be an official listserver news page, that's regularly updated with news of things like this.

Nimrod, as far as I know, is talking about attacks that occurred in the past (not recent ones which would make 'he hadn't done anything to warrant an extension' relevant). Or at least, I don't think he specified anything about recent attacks. That wouldn't have been possible as Orbitz has been banned from his servers for a large while. I'm not entirely sure on these statements, but still quite sure. Nimrod could shed some light on this.

The listserver community on livejournal actually was started as official news page..

Nimrod, could you shed some light on what resources Orbitz actually attacked, too? Did he only attack your JJ2 servers? If so, the ban seems not relevant anymore if you do not play JJ2 anymore. You could just enforce the ban when you have a server up, which would save you those hours tweaking your router. And I cannot imagine that the few packets needed to call up your serverlist would cost you any money. I think that surfing the JCF for a little while sends you enough packets to compare to quite some time of listserver hosting.

I just want to say that I respect Nimrod keeping control over his own servers, but I do dislike how this translates into hidden bans on part of the network service. As mentioned before, this is not a serious problem as there more than one server in the list server network, but it still has a significant effect due to the small number of list servers actually running. And there is also the problem that there is not formal way to deal with this.

There is one way to stop the crashing, and I'm sure many people will not be happy if you actually decide to do this: close the list servers.

To answer some of the questions:

First of all, Links question about the threat.
That threat will always be there if a list which is part of the network doesnt act when it comes to crashing and so fourth. The moment a user can provide one bit of proof about Orbitz, or his best friend Adeel crashing we can issue a ban. If a member of the network doesnt act on this ban, I will quite frankly do everything possible to disconnect them.

In regards to possibly allowing access to the list, and no other resorce. If someone wishes to either:

Use the source code thats available for PeerGuardian, and code it to ignore port 10053-10059 when it comes to the IP Block List. This way Orbitz would be blocked from everything, except from the list.

Get the Linksys Wireless-G Broadband Router firmware source using the GNU License. Then do something similar to what I said above with PeerGuardian and the IP Ban list.

FQuist, while my browsing JCF I am using more bandwidth than the list would ever use. thats not really an issue. Bandwidth is extremely cheap, and I use it mostly for myself (Bit Torrent). The cost infact is the running of servers. A PC is left on 24/7 running the List Server. This first costs money in regards to electricity, secondly the hardware costs upfront, and when parts fail. It add's up, and I can ensure you it costs more than your Hostpointe Package does for J2o and you get that paid for by donations, I dont.

What did Orbitz attack?
Mainly my JJ2 Games, but he also took advantage of downloads available on my web server which includes all the JJ2 versions and JJ3. I'm protecting my bandwidth by stopping him be able to use my geneous free downloads, and my jj2 games when I actually play. Which isnt anymore. But I still never to intend to let him use my resources.

hope this feels the gaps.

In the end, it's Nimrod's desicion on what he does with his list servers, because it's his property. If you don't like the fact that Nimrod bans Orbitz from using his server, then simply don't use Nimrod's server. Monolith's server is in perfect condition.

Originally Posted by UNKNOWNFILE

There is one way to stop the crashing, and I'm sure many people will not be happy if you actually decide to do this: close the list servers.

You know you can still join (and crash) games without the list servers at all. All you need is the host's IP. So it's not like the list servers are the great bridge over a bottomless chasm between the clients and the servers.

but looking up the IP of every server is annoying ;-P

Originally Posted by Nimrod

Orbitz, or his best friend Adeel

Orbitz = Adeel

Hahaha, this site is still up? Wow. Sorry for any trouble I might have caused in the past. It's been 5 years, can't believe at the age of 11 I was able to do this much damage to a community like this.

...oh my God! It's him! It's Orbitz! PUSH THE RED BUTTON!

Lmfao! You still play? How old are all you guys. Rofl @ my english back then, I'm having a fun time reading up on all my posts from back then.

And don't worry I have no interests in playing this game again, but it sure was great while it lasted!

omg its the most evil bad (-)(-)(-) ever on jj2!

wb!!!

Lmao, I still to this day can't imagine how I acquired all those hacking programs and did what i did to this community. I remember the one I used to use the most 'ASD' - Advanced Server Destruction. I still have a copy of that on my old computer, I doubt it'll work though. I may just give this game a shot again just for the memories, legit ofcourse :P.