Most of us are growing sick of the ladder levels.. bringing to life some levels from the older days would put a smile on us players from 04'-05' and let JJ2 breath some fresh air. Therefore I came up with a few suggestions, also feel free to add if you got a nice level in mind.. let's debate this and most important of all, convince DZ to make a change!

• Zaitox Station 67
• Security Breach v2
• Nuclear Afterblast
• Medieval Skyscrapers
• Atom Heart 243.5
• SPACE ISLAND LEVEL WITH ISLANDS
• Quasar Quandary
• Darker Science
• Radioactive Soup
• Sacrifice
• Technodus Cargo Station
• Pinball Arena 2k5

The mappool was changed 2010-04-08 and the active clans suggested the maps.

We can always change it again.
But maybe not in the middle of the season.
Also, I am not the only one in the JJ.net crew.

Sure, I just hope that for the next season some other swedish admin wouldn't be forcing everyone to play a random small level ONLY he likes

Yeah, I agree with spaceboy. I was about posting this suggestion but first wanted to ask DZ and the JJ.net crew. What about a map contest like SJ did it for jj.net tourney v2.0 ? So only 1 map can win. It will be fun. Also try to add more gamemodes like JB, TLRS, etc. It will give more ambitions to the new clans, and more incertitude in ladder system.

In the past JJ2WC held several contests that provided excellent levels, which are now unfortunately forgotten (some of these levels I mentioned above are just a few).. rather start playing them again than make another contest.

Ya I already told SJ we could use a bigger map pool - seems like a lot of good maps have to be left out in a small map pool.
Yet from what he told me, this map pool is actually bigger than the one in season one, so its good to see the admins being conscious of this, shall we simply call it, "problem".

I wouldn't mind having the pool made bigger during the season, but I can also understand how the admins are busy people who need to run a competition and probably get way too little credit for it and how their lifes would be easier if we change it for season 3.
If one clan, were for example, to start owning on the new levels, thereby gaining a lot of points, I can already see the rest complaining, how the rules were bent for that clan.

Imagine us owning on Zaitox after this post by Reptile, everybody else would be incredibly angry at the admins, which would be seen as simply agents of one clan or another.

Although I completely agree with Rep and I actually believe the admins should just chuck all the best CTF levels ever made in the map pool (so people would have a harder time to prepare for them all which would result in skills counting for more as opposed to drill, which is the name of the game for all small map pools).

The mappool was changed a while back to be here for 1 full season. All clans got the chance to vote, so everybody was more or less happy. Wait till the next season and I don't mind changing it again.. (whenever a clan hits 100 points, basically)
You did have the chance to vote but didn't at that time..

Originally Posted by spaceboy

Sure, I just hope that for the next season some other swedish admin wouldn't be forcing everyone to play a random small level ONLY he likes

I think we just posted there was a vote and therefore this isn't a reason at all.

Also, you aren't forced to play levels only in the mappool. You can request to play a level outside of it and if the enemy agrees, its yours to play. I do agree the mappool can be different next season but as Urbs said, it's best to wait till the end of the season..

Originally Posted by spaceboy

*LIST*

You forgot The Marshland of Evil.

MARSHLAND ftw!

I think there should be a bit more levels in the mappool. The current is fine, but I'd like to play something else than semi/je/bbswing/bblair/gw/dw/epitome/disto, but the opponents usually refuse other levels, because they don't know them.

Yeah. Everyone just spams you for Semi...

It's odd to me that Zaitox/SBv2 aren't in the mappool, these lvls have always been very popular..

Most clans wont accept non map pool, but you have to see that the admins would preffer if things were changed next season.
Anyway, next time we play NF, our team picks zaitox, ok?

Rep and other recent returners, check out this thread (no there was no actual voting, Veg, but I published the clan-suggestions to prove that we did take the input into account):

http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showthread.php?t=18767


DZ and Veg are right, the mappool was supposed to stay for the entire season. Nontheless, discussing how well suited levels are for competitive play is fun and useful for the next season. Please try to explain why a certain level would be well-suited. Keep in mind why certain levels were discarded last time (for examples levels like sbv2 where you can rush a lot causes serious imbalance in a 2 lvl ladder match)

I'm not gonna deny that epitome was my idea, but ppl liked it (else it wouldn't have passed through in the admin discussion). If you want a level removed from the mappool, explain why it's not suited for competitive jj2.


Edit: keep in mind that the level must work well in 2v2, not only in 3v3

Hmm, a two tiered solution for 3v3 would be too complicated then?

Nice point with sbv2, never thought of it that way...
I guess ladder has its specificalities.
How about CW's? Is it possible atm to pick any level?
Or does the same policy apply as with ladder games?
Cuz if nothing else, at least the CW pool could be bigger, because as you said, some problems, such as rushing, normally dont apply in 3v3 games.

Oh and, on a sidenote, while playing 2v2 in zaitox with RL I didn't find camping to be a serious problem, although I will say this, you could see the opposing team hadn't played there a lot, because a more experienced team would have shredded deathly and me to pieces (especially cuz deathly didn't use the high ground at all and was never RTS). So i reckon a good camper could be S for long periods of time, still, that holds true for both sides, in which case there is no unbalance. If a two-tiered approach would be approved then Zaitox ought definitely be included, although playing that one match against RL i have to say, Zaitox is definitely a 2v2 level as well.
Never liked sbv2, but it's a favourite of many. Oh well let the discussion begin

I don't have any opinions on what levels should be used... but if there is a contest I'll definitely make a CTF level to submit to it. Although that's maybe more appropriate for a future tournament mappool, rather than the one for the ladder (which seems to favour old, proven classics over new levels). But that's up to the people running it, really.

Or, I could just make a new 2vs2 level anyway. I like contests though, because there's more competition, more motivation, and a higher chance of the levels getting played.

Originally Posted by [GpW]Urbs

Hmm, a two tiered solution for 3v3 would be too complicated then?

I suppose it could be done if there are good 3v3 levels that don't work in 2v2. In my experience, though, such levels are generally huge levels with slow gameplay, not what we've envisioned as good competitive levels... but maybe the rest of you have a different take on that than the admin team

How about CW's? Is it possible atm to pick any level? Or does the same policy apply as with ladder games?

http://jazzjackrabbit.net/index.php?...son=1&op=rules
The mappool is what you use in ladder matches if nothing else is agreed upon. In clanwars you normally decide on levels beforehand and the mappool doesn't apply. Of course, it's possible to just pick a date and play the clanwar with the ladder match rules but for more points. (This could admittedly be expressed more clearly in the rules)

Cuz if nothing else, at least the CW pool could be bigger, because as you said, some problems, such as rushing, normally dont apply in 3v3 games.

If anything, it applies even more in 3v3... On sbv2 you're best off having one guy safely rts and one guy r (to prevent the enemy flag carrier to get the high ground). As soon as the enemy flag dies, you score and the r-guy immediatly recaps and rushes, while the scorer defends and the killer gets r again. This way you can rush 2 scores if you pull it off wel, and rushing one is more or less the default case. This is even more so because you can have someone camp the seekers which will finish off escaping recappers or damage the attackers before they even reach base.

Oh and, on a sidenote, while playing 2v2 in zaitox with RL I didn't find camping to be a serious problem, although I will say this, you could see the opposing team hadn't played there a lot, because a more experienced team would have shredded deathly and me to pieces (especially cuz deathly didn't use the high ground at all and was never RTS). So i reckon a good camper could be S for long periods of time, still, that holds true for both sides, in which case there is no unbalance. If a two-tiered approach would be approved then Zaitox ought definitely be included, although playing that one match against RL i have to say, Zaitox is definitely a 2v2 level as well.

In my experience zaitox always becomes a camp fest as soon as the teams know what they're doing, on the other hand I tend to enjoy the games there still. I'll have to play some (high quality) games there before I have a set opinion about it. I am positive though that it is not a good 2v2 level, but it should be considered for a 3v3-or-bigger-pool.

Originally Posted by EvilMike

I don't have any opinions on what levels should be used... but if there is a contest I'll definitely make a CTF level to submit to it. Although that's maybe more appropriate for a future tournament mappool, rather than the one for the ladder (which seems to favour old, proven classics over new levels). But that's up to the people running it, really.

The ladder mappool is indeed quite... conservative in this aspect. This is because of the mandatory nature of the mappool: you can force the other clan to play in a level if it's in the mappool. For this reason the original mappool was really small and very uncontroversial. The fact of the matter is that people pay a lot of attention to their map choice, which is why so few non mappool levels are played. The opposing team generally refuses. However, lately certain clans seem to be very good on one map but not as good on other maps: RL regularily hands everyone's asses to them on distopia, VS is very hard to beat on JE when Warrior plays. You can use this fact to play other levels if you want to. Just tell your opponents: do you want us to crush you on distopia or can we give elcas a go? (Yes, you should play elcas. It ownz.)

Originally Posted by EvilMike

Or, I could just make a new 2vs2 level anyway. I like contests though, because there's more competition, more motivation, and a higher chance of the levels getting played.

Contests tend to produce good levels, yes. Tournaments should definitely make use of such contests. If the ladder should is another question, but I'm not all that opposed to the idea myself


Edit:

Originally Posted by spaceboy

It's odd to me that Zaitox/SBv2 aren't in the mappool, these lvls have always been very popular..

For sbv2 see above. Zaitox wasn't suggested last time the mappool was expanded and therefore hasn't been discussed properly yet. The first time around we picked a very small uncontroverisal mappool on purpose

Nuclear Afterblast was very popular during JJ2WC days and it isn't even in DZ' server. What a shame. Marsh, TCS and Atom Heart are also levels everyone loves but for some reason don't get enough credit.

The reason people chose lvls like JE, Dist, etc is cuz they're simply good at them, not cuz the levels themselves are good.

Also funny that 4 out of 5 people who voted "no" are admins.

The reason for that is that we simply can't change the mappool during a season. Expect the reactions, as Urbs said

I do regulary play TCS.. Marhs less but still its there at times, espescially when there's a JDC season going on. I do also see AH at times..

Originally Posted by spaceboy

Also funny that 4 out of 5 people who voted "no" are admins.

You bring up some good points, but I don't think it's a good idea to make this seem like a conflict between players and the ladder admins. Even if some haha, made you look

Originally Posted by Vegito

The reason for that is that we simply can't change the mappool during a season. Expect the reactions, as Urbs said

Yeah, for me it's be cool as long as next season there'll be a new mappool.

The main reason to have more levels in the pool is the fact that the new generation of players should see what awesome levels are out there - even if some games get a bit unbalanced.
Cuz ATM ain't no one out there that will play a non pool game with you. In general of course.

As for 3v3' levels being too big and too slow, I find you contradict yourself on that point gry. Sbv2, marsh and zaitox and some other legendary levels that aren't competitively playable in 2v2 games could be added for clanwars or 3v3/4v4 games.

New levels are always appreciated as well. Diversity might bring about some problems, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, and maybe push a level or two in there even if teh balance isn't completely right.
Hell our last DW game, we got 2 rushes each worth 2 points and it's still in the pool.

Originally Posted by spaceboy

Also funny that 4 out of 5 people who voted "no" are admins.

The question isn't if it would be good, better or worse to change it, but if it's necessary.

As for 3v3' levels being too big and too slow, I find you contradict yourself on that point gry. Sbv2, marsh and zaitox and some other legendary levels that aren't competitively playable in 2v2 games could be added for clanwars or 3v3/4v4 games.

How is you repeating what I said me contradicting myself?

well on the one hand you aren't against a two tiered system yet on the other hand you call all such levels slow. Yet some of these supposedly slow levels allow for multiple rushes.

I know different levels. I'm just pointing out how not all new a3v3 additions would be "slow" levels.

I think we understand one another it's just me being nitpicky

Whilst I don't agree with all the maps you suggested, I do think the mappool should be modified, even if only slightly. I just don't think a good enough variety of levels are available at the moment.

As some pointed out, 4 out of 5 that voted no are admins.
I'd like to point out something else. 95% of the actual ladder match players haven't voted at all ... So it's too early to point out anything yet. It's currently like 4 players posting here actively against like 4 admins.

As with any mappool for any tourney, some players will always complain.

Originally Posted by Grytolle

Contests tend to produce good levels, yes. Tournaments should definitely make use of such contests. If the ladder should is another question, but I'm not all that opposed to the idea myself

If this is considered, I would suggest that such a contest take a somewhat different approach than the recent 1vs1 tournament one did.

Basically, I think that there should be a rule (or at least, an agreement between all the judges) that the levels should be conservatively designed, with a very strong focus on balance, 2vs2 playability, dynamic gameplay, etc. Symmetry is not required, but the level should be carefully playtested (by both the creator and the judges) to ensure that it is not too lopsided. Gimmicks should be kept to a minimum but can be allowed if they aren't too extreme (in other words, no outright crazy stuff like Light Switch).

Those are the sorts of things you find in the current ladder mappool levels.
I think such a contest would be likely to produce at least one ladder worthy level. Of course, it's harder to design a level fitting such strict requirements, but most people who have made a few CTF levels are capable of that imo.