I think we should include all great overall accepted levels in the JJ.net ladder tourney mappool so that there can be no bias on level choise. I think it is unfair that some players are able to chose their favourite level while others see it refused.

Current Mappool levels:

-Happy Semiconductor
-Jungle's Edge
-BloodBunny's Lair
-Swingin Jazz (fixed)
-Galactic Warfare
-Epitome
-Diamondus Warzone[JJnet Edit]
-Distopia

I suggest that we at least add these:

-Security Breach v2
-Happy Superconductor CTF
-Technodius Cargo Station
-Medieval Skyscrapers
-Quasar Qandary

Ofcource any suggestions of real high quality levels can be added.

What do you think?

I'm personally against SBv2 and QQ as they are too campy for a 2vs2 and you can easily stay alive for a long time with the flag (unless 3vs3-only maps are added of course, in which case they could add a few bigger maps aswell).

For clearance: this is about the mappool used at jj.net

Here follow my personal opinions and/or why we didn't add those lvls last time we revised the mappool. I'd guess it's also part of the reason that those lvls are so rarely played nowadays

-Security Breach v2

Too campy, and horrible for 2v2s.

-Happy Superconductor CTF

Is an excellent, original lvl. I woud love to have that added. We didn't add it last time since we thought that the users might think it to hard to move around in/too weird.

-Technodius Cargo Station

Is quite a good lvl, but it is a bit unbalanced, since it's way easier to rush top to bottom than bottom to top

-Medieval Skyscrapers

Is also a very campy lvl, but it's less horrible than sbv2. Except for the campyness, another main problem is that you can just lame around at the top in order to dd.

-Quasar Qandary

Is also a bit too campy. If we wanted another very base-based lvl, I'd go for Galactic Warfare, which is the most entertaining one of that kind, imo




Edit:
Polling per lvl would make more sense imo..

I don't agree with adding new maps to this new mappool. Maybe JJ.net crew can edit MS, and add wall or "Area Fly Off" events some tiles above Carrot, hmm?

Happy semi-conductor is the most BORING level. Only because it's so overplayed. The rest are fair enough for me, though.

Gry hit the nail on the head.

Superconductor's the only one among those that could/should be added. Perhaps as a replacement for Epitome, which is quite unrefined.

Yes, but change only Epitome. It's an unacceptable small map with some vital bugs and a slowly game play. I'm sick of people who are tackling this subject with replies like 'it works great in 2v2, 3v3', even if it's not provable. You can easily trick your enemy there going up to the crates and camping with bouncer, until he comes to kill you but you hit him and run away. Also you can get stuck down on that big poles and shoot with ammo9. Whatever, I'm not going to review it, I'm just saying this level was chosen by Grytolle, since it is his favorite one and if someone uses the screen res hack he can see the whole map but... this is on another area.

It was my suggestion, yes, which the rest agreed on

The flaws you mention seem more relevant for duels than ladder games, though. Proof that it works great in 2v2/3v3 is that it's been played a lot and people enjoyed it

I have no idea how much you can see with the high res hack in that level, since my computer's max resolution is 1366x768. Using ridiculously high resolutions will give you an advantage in big levels too, though... just look at Robbee's screenshot from DW

So overplayed... BORING. But whatever.

Originally Posted by Grytolle

It was my suggestion, yes, which the rest agreed on

The flaws you mention seem more relevant for duels than ladder games, though. Proof that it works great in 2v2/3v3 is that it's been played a lot and people enjoyed it

I have no idea how much you can see with the high res hack in that level, since my computer's max resolution is 1366x768. Using ridiculously high resolutions will give you an advantage in big levels too, though... just look at Robbee's screenshot from DW

...Which doesn't mean we couldn't remove it if a lot of people dislike it

''the rest agreed on'' - What do you mean by this, the rest of JJ2 players or the admins? :P

''Proof that it works great in 2v2/3v3 is that it's been played a lot and people enjoyed it'' - Of course SOME people are enjoying it, firstly they have no choice because it won't be changed if they dislike it so a train is necessary and, as dermo said, it's overplayed. For example, semi is overplayed and that's why so many players love it.

''I have no idea how much you can see with the high res hack in that level'' -
Okay, not the whole level, I exaggerated.

''Using ridiculously high resolutions will give you an advantage in big levels too, though...'' That's why we should use 1.24 now.

Also, wasn't the idea of choosing the mappoll levels in player's opinion? How many of you voted for this level to be added? Just wondering, since I didn't.

Originally Posted by KiMO

''the rest agreed on'' - What do you mean by this, the rest of JJ2 players or the admins? :P
...
Also, wasn't the idea of choosing the mappoll levels in player's opinion? How many of you voted for this level to be added? Just wondering, since I didn't.

The rest of the admins. It isn't a secret that the mappool was selected by the admins, based on input from the clans. We simply looked at all the lvls listed: 1) Is this a well-suited level? 2) Will ppl mind a lot? 3) How many clans suggested it?

Originally Posted by Grytolle

The rest of the admins. It isn't a secret that the mappool was selected by the admins, based on input from the clans. We simply looked at all the lvls listed: 1) Is this a well-suited level? 2) Will ppl mind a lot? 3) How many clans suggested it?

I don't understand why are you still caring about our opinion if in the end you're the player/players who decide what's gonna happen. I know admins do that, but you should take more serious things like changing the mappoll. You can't add there a map just because you like it, without having some strong reason for doing this. About your list:
1 - You can't be based on that. Each person has a review for a level, which means that some people find it perfect, others say it's not good enough.
2 - I've personally done that. And I don't think I'm the only one.
3 - I surely know CDF, KY and RA confirmed that they haven't suggested this map.

I agree the changes were a lot of time ago and it's really hard to do something now, but even so you have to replace this map.

I can confirm that TM has suggested this map, though I didn't like the choise. But at least we let all the members have a democratic vote.

So, I opened up the hotmail account with all the clan suggestions This should make it quite clear that we have indeed taken your wishes into consideration


Submitted by KiMO for KY (haha had forgotten that you submitted epitome yourself )
- Epitome
- Distopia
- Technodus Cargo Station
- Medieval Skycrapers

(SACA): Mechanized Disaster

wct:
-rainbow hills
-distopia
-GW

MasterSven for TM (the "democratic vote" seems to have included a lot of inactive players(?)):
-Medieval Skyscrapers
-Security Breach v2
-Face

CDF:
Distopia
SBV2
Rainbow Hills

RA (Slayer's post on jj.net, no idea why he didn't mail like we asked him to )

Well I think it's time to add DW, In 2008 you added JE and a lot of people were crying because of that. People should play there, it's a legendary lvl. I think AYB or GW are fine,You should think about the levels who werent in mappool and were played very often like Distopia for example. I hope this won't be CC mappool and you will add finally Distopia or DW - levels what RA and VS clans like.

(personally I very much disapprove of DW btw)

CC's suggestions:
-Superconductor
-Diamondus Warzone
-Epitome

[VS] suggestions:
- Jungle’s Edge
- Diamondus Warzone
- Distopia


Total "votes" (if we hypothetically had followed the suggestions blindly):
(supposing RA submitted: DW, JE, AYB, GW, distopia)
- Distopia (5x)
- Diamondus Warzone (3x)
- Jungle's Edge (3x)
- Epitome (2x) (active TMers approved too)
- Rainbow Hills (2x)
- Galactic Warfare (2x)
- Security Breach 2 (2x)
- Technodus Cargo Station
- Medieval Skycrapers
- Mechanized Disaster
- Medieval Skyscrapers
- Face
- All your base
- Superconductor

Current mappool

Map pool
The levels in the map pool is for CTF and can not be refused. Other levels and gamemodes (see allowed gamemodes) may be played in matches and clanwars, but only if both clans agree.
-Happy Semiconductor (lvl, tileset)
-Jungle's Edge (lvl, tileset)
-BloodBunny's Lair (lvl, tileset)
-Swingin Jazz (fixed) (lvl, tileset)
-Galactic Warfare (lvl, tileset)
-Epitome (lvl, tileset)
-Diamondus Warzone[JJnet Edit](lvl, tileset)
-Distopia (lvl, tileset)

Clan suggestions in current mappool
VS: 3/3
RA (hard to count, lets say they suggested: DW, JE, AYB, GW, distopia): 4/5
CC: 2/3
wct: 2/3
KY: 2/4
CDF: 1/3
SACA: 0/1
TM: 0/3 (but the numerous TMers among the admins didn't quite press for MS or Face to be added; MS didn't get any votes from other clans and none of the admins thouhgt it to be a great idea; adding Face would have seemed biased, as it is created by DZ and not very popular; and sbv2 see below)


The only possible bias that I see, is that we didn't add Rainbow Hills, eventhough 2 clans suggested it. Oh, and SBV2. Both were discarded for gameplay reasons, and we sure haven't had any complaints about excluding them.

Considering that none of TM's suggestions that MasterSven submitted were added, I can see why he personally isn't any fan of our mappool, though



Edit:
I might as well state the gameplay reasons...

Rainbow Hills
quite one-wayed and very open
-> easy to dominate and rush
-> high chance at airhits

Sbv2
-very easy to rush scores
-> imbalance in ladder matches: one team picks semi and wins 5-3, the other team picks sbv2 and wins 10-3 because it's so easy to rush
-very easy to rts (you can pretty much only get hit by air when you're rts)
main reason: horrible in 2v2 (it's simply almost impossible to kill on your own)


Lastly: most admins thought adding superconductor would be a good idea, but we didn't since it only got one vote. AYB was also considered for a long while, but was discarded for the same reason

And perhaps it's an idea to not have all members vote in a democratic manner.
Rather, have all the active players vote instead cause these know whats going on, Sven

Oh well, what can I say. Shame on me, I totally forgot that I have suggested a map which I hadn't even played it. PJ told us some encouraging words about this lvl, so I've just said ''why not''. After that I played it and realized later that it has to be changed.

Well discussing the mappool again is very much okay. New suggestions and stuff are always welcome (although we try not to change the mappool too often - I don't think any of you would want that(?)). I just wanted to make clear that we did quite a good job when we created it

Originally Posted by Grytolle

Submitted by KiMO for KY (haha had forgotten that you submitted epitome yourself )
- Epitome
- Distopia
- Technodus Cargo Station
- Medieval Skycrapers

MasterSven for TM (the "democratic vote" seems to have included a lot of inactive players(?)):
-Medieval Skyscrapers
-Security Breach v2
-Face

Total "votes" (if we hypothetically had followed the suggestions blindly):
(supposing RA submitted: DW, JE, AYB, GW, distopia)
- Distopia (5x)
- Diamondus Warzone (3x)
- Jungle's Edge (3x)
- Epitome (2x) (active TMers approved too)
- Rainbow Hills (2x)
- Galactic Warfare (2x)
- Security Breach 2 (2x)
- Technodus Cargo Station
- Medieval Skycrapers
- Mechanized Disaster
- Medieval Skyscrapers
- Face
- All your base
- Superconductor

You mind explaining why you didn't add MS as well...?
Just wondering.

Too easy to dd in 2v2s, although it's a decent 3v3 lvl (was one of the reasons atleast...)

edit: looked back in our protocols: the open area makes the lvl quite lag dependant (although JE is imo worse in that aspect)

Originally Posted by Grytolle

- Epitome (2x)
- Rainbow Hills (2x)
- Galactic Warfare (2x)
- Security Breach 2 (2x)
- Medieval Skycrapers
- Medieval Skyscrapers

There were added only 2 maps, although there are 5 titles with the same 'advantage' here.

Originally Posted by Grytolle

Too easy to dd in 2v2s, although it's a decent 3v3 lvl (was one of the reasons atleast...)

edit: looked back in our protocols: the open area makes the lvl quite lag dependant (although JE is imo worse in that aspect)

Grytolle, that sounded more like an admin opinion. I agree there are many levels voted so far, and you can't just add them all in the mappoll, but you could at least ask people before doing something, like giving them the opportunity to vote 2 of 5 maps. Sounds a waste of time I know, but this is what a good admin do.

If u say JE is worse, you shouldnt have added JE to the mappool. If u wanna keep JE, then add MS.

I say that PERSONALLY Other admins consider JE a great level. JE was also not added, it was kept from the previous mappool