Am I missing much by not being able to play as her?

I would ask this on Lori Central, but it won't let me post there for some reason.

Not really. She's OP in street fight, but that's about it.

It's no secret that her implementation in the game was rushed, and it really shows.

Are you good at gaining vertical momentum without double jump? Possibly

If not: You'll find her annoying to play.

However, a lot of levelmakers pretend she doesn't exist. TSF included.

Honestly though, at this day and age, there's no point in trying to get TSF legally. It's unlikely JJ2 will ever be re-released.

I have a question too. Why she looks low detailed compared to any other sprites in the game? No fur detail, no nothing. Looks plain. She isn't even naked like the other characters- even though it's just a bunny and there are no boobs in a bunny. Or atleast these things aren't visible anyway.

Because she was drawn by a different artist (Dean Dodrill as opposed to Nick Stadler)

I give it 1/10. Why he didn't even bothered to give shading? He knows well that, drawing plain shit wouldn't fit it in the game.

Dean drew Lori traditional style(Although I think he digitally coloured her), without a colour palette and at a fairly large size. So, when scaled down and altered to fit Jazz 2's colour palette, she looks a little strange.
Here's some(Maybe all) of Lori's sprites at the original(Larger) size. Keep in mind that there's no antialiasing because Dean knew she'd be downscaled, which would make doing AA before that unnecessary. You can see a lot of detail in these that was lost ingame.

Also, lori is a bori

Originally Posted by Robo4900

Dean drew Lori traditional style(Although I think he digitally coloured her), without a colour palette and at a fairly large size. So, when scaled down and altered to fit Jazz 2's colour palette, she looks a little strange.
Here's some(Maybe all) of Lori's sprites at the original(Larger) size. Keep in mind that there's no antialiasing because Dean knew she'd be downscaled, which would make doing AA before that unnecessary. You can see a lot of detail in these that was lost ingame.

Thanks for the link. Really appreciate it. This Lori still looks flat and plain though. Looks too much cartoonish with outlines and whatnot? But yeah, it has some details [Flat plain clear picture], but not satisfactory for the game.

Originally Posted by Stijn

Also, lori is a bori

Agreed.

Originally Posted by SAMI

-snip-

"even though it's just a bunny and there are no boobs in a bunny "
Shes humanoid...you know, like Eva. >_> Jazz and Spaz are actually humanoid too, just to a lesser degree. If they stand on hind legs, live like a human, and can talk - chances are, the females are going to have breasts.

"She isn't even naked like the other characters-"
Bullshit. Heck, even some male background characters wear clothes. And I'm not convinced they are naked. Rather that many of the males just don't like to wear traditional pants/trousers/whocareswhatyoucallthem. Fur coloured pants/costumes are actually pretty common in the world of toony animal guys.

"Why she looks low detailed compared to any other sprites in the game? "
Other than being done over with a different artist. Her sprites were created differently. They were resized and pixelled over by someone who didn't know how to pixelart (it was actually not Dean, but I think he lacked experience in that medium too) hence me wanting to overhaul. I still can't get over how awful her standing shooting sprite looks.

PS: Jazz and Spaz have outlines in their sprites too. All of the sprites do.

Still...nice hyperbole.

I don't think this is a topic worth getting worked up about to the degree you're doing, TreyLina.

Originally Posted by Stijn

I don't think this is a topic worth getting worked up about to the degree you're doing, TreyLina.

It's not that it's to do with Lori, it's that many of his criticisms make no sense.

Originally Posted by Treylina

"even though it's just a bunny and there are no boobs in a bunny "
Shes humanoid...you know, like Eva. >_> Jazz and Spaz are actually humanoid too, just to a lesser degree. If they stand on hind legs, live like a human, and can talk - chances are, the females are going to have breasts.

"She isn't even naked like the other characters-"
Bullshit. Heck, even some male background characters wear clothes. And I'm not convinced they are naked. Rather that many of the males just don't like to wear traditional pants/trousers/whocareswhatyoucallthem. Fur coloured pants/costumes are actually pretty common in the world of toony animal guys.

"Why she looks low detailed compared to any other sprites in the game? "
Other than being done over with a different artist. Her sprites were created differently. They were resized and pixelled over by someone who didn't know how to pixelart (it was actually not Dean, but I think he lacked experience in that medium too) hence me wanting to overhaul. I still can't get over how awful her standing shooting sprite looks.

I just expressed my opinion. And it has nothing to do with any of those whatever boob censored shit you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Treylina

Nice hyperbole, are you blind? There's quite clearly cel-shading in her sprites. Want me to hold your hand and point it out for you?

PS: Jazz and Spaz have outlines in their sprites too. All of the sprites do.

So you tend to be rude with me without even understanding what I said? Should I call you idiot or what? The character is cel shaded indeed.

But did I just talked about cel shading?

I talked about shading. That means baked lighting on the character. Jazz, Spaz, Eva etc all had baked light on them, making them look puffed out instead of flat. That's also called shading.

While Lori's sprite is flat out cartoon. That's what I said.

And you didn't have to get mad at me just for expressing my opinion. Or do you?

Originally Posted by Treylina

It's not that it's to do with Lori, it's that many of his criticisms make no sense.

And you didn't even realize what I criticized about and telling that it doesn't make sense? Read and think before you post.

Look, you don't need to get mad. Chill out, opinions may not be same. But there's no point in posting words like blind, etc.




And here's what other meanings of shaded are:

Shadeless:


Shaded:



Shaded= Lighting.

Now JJ2 doesnt support dynamic lights. But the sprites have already shadows and lightings baked on them. Okay? It's a different thing unlike cel shading.

Guys, relax. Opinions are like armpits; everyone has them, and they all stink. Or, in a more clear way, you two have different tastes, neither of you are going to change your opinions if this conversation continues, so why even have this discussion?

Anyway, was it really not Dean who did Lori's sprites? I was sure it was...

It's not about changing opinion dude. She didn't even understood what I talked about. She is calling me blind for a totally different thing- called cel shading, which I'm not talkin about.

Dean did the original drawings, Scottie Cone did some cleanup/shrinking/editing.

It's clear that Dean's style is different from Nick's. I don't think either style is better than the other, but clearly Lori's sprites stand out from the game a bit due to their style. Ideally Nick's style would have been emulated for Lori's sprites, or Nick would've been brought in to do the sprites, but clearly that didn't happen.

I don't think it's productive to get into a discussion on the definition of 'cel shading' here, by the way. I think SAMI isn't necessarily using the term as it's generally used but that doesn't really matter. In the end what it comes down to is that Lori is drawn in a different style than the rest of the game, and as a result stands out a bit. It's not the worst thing in the world, but yeah, it is noticable. She's also a bori

Originally Posted by SAMI

-snip-

To be pedantic, you're talking about highlights. Highlights and shading are two different things. Cel-shading...is a form of shading.

"I just expressed my opinion. And it has nothing to do with any of those whatever boob censored shit you're talking about. "
Lol "boob censored shit". I just think your design principles regarding JJ characters regarding clothes and such made no sense. How boring would a forum be if everyone agreed with each other all the time?

Originally Posted by Robo4900

Anyway, was it really not Dean who did Lori's sprites? I was sure it was...

Dean did the basis of the majority of them, but someone else spritified them (I think it was Scotty Cone?).

Would I agree Lori looks a little out of place? Yes, though it's because of stylistic choice.

Originally Posted by Treylina

To be pedantic, you're talking about highlights. Highlights and shading are two different things. Cel-shading...is a form of shading..

For once again, I'm going to tell you that those highlights an lightings are a part of shading. Yes cel- shading is a part of shading too. But clearly you understand that I'm not talking about cel shading.

And when I said it looks "flat", you should have known what I meant, or didn't you? Why are you pointlessly arguing for no good reason? The whole thing was very simple, Lori's shading [And I'm not talking about cel shading] wasn't suitable for JJ2 at all.

And then you had to start over reacting with it and then tell that my criticize doesn't make sense? Looks more like you're the one who's blind here. And you're reading my posts literary. How hard is it for you to understand what I meant by shading?

Enough of it anyway. Our discussion will lead this thread to get locked. I don't want this.

Originally Posted by Stijn

Dean did the original drawings, Scottie Cone did some cleanup/shrinking/editing.

It's clear that Dean's style is different from Nick's. I don't think either style is better than the other, but clearly Lori's sprites stand out from the game a bit due to their style. Ideally Nick's style would have been emulated for Lori's sprites, or Nick would've been brought in to do the sprites, but clearly that didn't happen.

I don't think it's productive to get into a discussion on the definition of 'cel shading' here, by the way. I think SAMI isn't necessarily using the term as it's generally used but that doesn't really matter. In the end what it comes down to is that Lori is drawn in a different style than the rest of the game, and as a result stands out a bit. It's not the worst thing in the world, but yeah, it is noticable. She's also a bori

And this is exactly what I'm saying all the time. And I'm not so expert in English [Sorry for that], but ever since working with 3D softwares and messing with games- I came to have the idea that "Shading" term can be used for lighting effect too. And I still think, shading is not just Cel shading. Hence "Cel" is used before "shading", cause its not the only shading.

I think the bottom line about Lori is that she could be a good character, but she is poorly supported in most levels, and was really buggy in vanilla TSF(Which made the poor support a self-fulfilling prophecy).

I think the bottom line about Lori is to avoid having questions about Lori.

Yeah, that's probably for the best. XD

Wow, all I wanted to know is if Lori is useful or not. I didn't want it to turn into a flame war.

Maybe it's best to close this thread as I already got my question answered.

what the heck, something exploded here.

As a person who is quite into furries (Straight Section), Lori can not be a bori to me. No, Lori is quite the welcome addition to the franchise. I immediately agree with Robo's statement that she's extremely powerful in Street Fight. Where Spaz has his normal karate chop and Jazz can't do much but buttstomp to victory, Lori's special move is 'endless'. You can just have her kick a wall all the time, and you're likely to kill anyone who tries to get to you. Usually you take them with you in such a situation.

Originally Posted by SAMI

She isn't even naked like the other characters- even though it's just a bunny and there are no boobs in a bunny. Or atleast these things aren't visible anyway.

Of course there can be boobs on a bunny. We're talking about something anthropomorfic (or 'anthro' for short) here. This means 'humanoid', and as such you'll see that animals get all kinds of 'human' body parts. Lori art around the web, both the SFW and NSFW kind, will show that she has boobs. Also, when you select her for a Single Player game, you can clearly see this. Her in-game sprite is also unmistakably 'boobed', just wait for her idle animations, especially the one showing her stretching. I think it's conventional that she's more dressed than her male counterparts, because if she wasn't it would be considered...explicit? I don't know, but this Robot Chicken video perfectly nails that problem:

click

Lori shouldn't be ignored by levelmakers, that's not nice ...but you'll see that there are levels where she's absolutely useless. A good example of this is Facing Worlds. That pit where you find the carrot is too deep for Lori to get out. Spaz and Jazz have no problem doing that. Also, I remember that Lori wasn't able to use the copters in Single Player levels, so you had to cheat at some points to get where you needed to be. Glad that this problem has been solved.

So yea, Lori may not be as detailed as the other bunnies, but I don't mind having her around. In all my tests there will be a moment when playing as Lori is inevitable .

Originally Posted by Borgia

Of course there can be boobs on a bunny. We're talking about something anthropomorfic, or 'anthro' for short) here. This means 'humanoid', and as such you'll see that animals get all kinds of 'human' body parts. Lori art around the web, both the SFW and NSFW kind, will show that she has boobs. Also, when you select her for a Single Player game, you can clearly see this. Her in-game sprite is also unmistakably 'boobed', just wait for her idle animations, especially the one showing her stretching. I think it's conventional that she's more dressed than her male counterparts, because if she wasn't it would be considered...explicit? I don't know, but this Robot Chicken video perfectly nails that problem:

She's only clothed because Lori's designer decided to make her more anthropomorphized than Jazz and Spaz. He anthropomorphized her enough for her to have sexual characteristics, which didn't happen for Jazz and Spaz, so they don't have to wear pants, because there's nothing between their legs.

Of course, he could also have chosen to not give Lori breasts, and then there would have been no need to clothe her. Anthropomorphization does not require sexual characteristics.

The character design of the Jazz Jackrabbit series is kinda all over the place in this regard - Spaz wearing only shoes and wristbands, Jazz not wearing shoes but having a headband and backpack, extras in the background wearing suit jackets, et cetera. The constant is that female bunnies are consistently wearing clothes and do all have breasts. So in that sense Lori does fit in, though it's a pretty lazy design choice, and the main reason for her being a bori.

But there is no explicit need for her to wear clothes, or have breasts, or whatever - nothing dictated by the universe's internal logic. Nor is it a logical extrapolation from the fact that all characters are anthropomorphic.

This thread was a good after-dinner read, whew! I enjoy playing as Lori from time to time. As for my levels, well, I always make it so that you can run-jump your way out everywhere as Lori but don't really care about making it "Lori-friendly".

Originally Posted by Stijn

The constant is that female bunnies are consistently wearing clothes and do all have breasts. So in that sense Lori does fit in, though it's a pretty lazy design choice, and the main reason for her being a bori.

Let's call for an agree to disagree .



Valid points you make, nontheless. I wasn't aware that Lori had another designer. And with that being the case, I'm interested in finding out the design philosophies that were put into creating the characters. Why was A done, and B after that, etc. In the end, it's a matter of taste whether or not this designer did a good job. We can now only talk in hindsight: 'he should have' or 'maybe this should have been like that'.

Not something to get all hostile about, really. There are more pressing issues in life than discussing a yellow bunny in a classic game.

Originally Posted by Stijn

The character design of the Jazz Jackrabbit series is kinda all over the place in this regard

Actually, I had developed a theory that it's a custom for male rabbits of the Jazz Jackrabbit universe to cover their wrists rather than any other body part. I'm not going as far as to seriously consider the option that this is where their actual genitals are, but it appears to be a consistent behavior. Jazz does it at all times except for sleep, including both of his weddings, so does Spaz, the priest at their first wedding has his covered, all adult male wedding guests at the second wedding do, the abandoned enemy concept "mystery bunny" castle guard does, and Razz a ma Tazz has pretty much everything except for his glorious chest hair covered. Granted, the Jackrabbit brothers are the only ones who cover them with just the wristbands, which may simply be the skimpiest you can legally get in the Jazz Jackrabbit universe. Notably, Jazz's Superman costume is accurate except for the highlighted red wrists, which may be a reference to how the actual Superman's costume appears to have red underwear on top - wristbands are essentially the underwear of this universe. Then he proceeds to put on a Batman costume, also with highlighted wrists, and a Wonder Woman costume which originally involves wristbands anyway - although he also gets the color and probably material of that wrong.

The only male character in the Jazz Jackrabbit universe who doesn't cover his wrists is the bonus warp bunny; however, that's not the only thing that's wrong with that little guy. His business is shady at best. Notice that he's the only rabbit besides Eva willing to help the Jackrabbits on their quest throughout JJ2. And who are Jackrabbits during the main JJ2 single player campaign? Criminals, that's who they are. Jazz is a convict who escapes jail with the help of his brother, they unload several rounds from their blasters into the queen of the planet and break the ceiling with her head, and this whole time the coin bunny provides them with better weapons for their arsenal. And that's not all, the coin bunny is present everywhere Jazz goes, and remember the whole action happens in different times, on different planets. It's clearly the same person each time, with the same stand and the same neon sign; sure, the fur color changes but dyes are a thing, or it may be a matter of lighting. It's obvious the bonus warp bunny is not only a nudist, but also an illegal weapon dealer and a time traveler. And there are more strange aspects to his business: he trades for currency which is clearly fake. Come on, the coins have Jazz's face on them, who again, is currently a wanted criminal who shot the queen. Plus, collectively, in the official 1.23 episodes, if you play as Spaz, 62.5% of the secrets he offers you don't even need his services for - you can reach them with normal jumps or easy RF climbs. I theorize that perhaps in the pursuit of Devan, the Jackrabbits overlooked the real mastermind behind his entire scheme, traveling along them all the time and gaining the protagonists' trust: the anonymous, mysterious, bonus warp bunny. Who is also a nudist. Because no one suspects nudists of being evil. Or perhaps he's not even a real rabbit and isn't exactly aware of the customs.

The nudist Warp bunny is just like the Merchant in Resident Evil 4. They are mostly gameplay element which aren't to be considered as canon.

Blaze made a thread to ask how important is Lori to the gameplay.
28 replies and Sir Ementaler elaborated a theory about Jazz and the Bonus Bunny being organized criminals.

Boy! That escalated quickly!

Aside from the rushed implantation, I never had a problem with Lori.
I remember spazzing out (no pun intended) back in the day when I found out about this elusive expansion back with a new playable character.

I think you don't miss much, since Lori basically plays like Jazz does.

Originally Posted by Darkhog

I think you don't miss much, since Lori basically plays like Jazz does.

... but without a special move to reach higher places.

People who say she plays like Jazz don't know about her sick sidekick glitches (or streetfight). I consider her to be better in MP than SP. Sure you can kill enemies easily with her sidekick, but I'd rather shoot them for pickups. But being able to use sidekick against powerups super fast is pretty useful in the fast paced MP, as it grants you full ammo.

You can actually reach half a tile higher than uppercut by using golden jump, which everyone can do. Unfortunately it's not the best substitute for uppercut since it forces you to the left/right and takes a while to charge up.

She's also generally better for speedrunning than Jazz, but who cares about those?

Originally Posted by Treylina

You can actually reach half a tile higher than uppercut by using golden jump, which everyone can do. Unfortunately it's not the best substitute for uppercut since it forces you to the left/right and takes a while to charge up.

golden jump + double jump is still superior, but at least it's a way to beat most high-jump places in SP levels

golden jumps are super inconvenient in MP games because of the pace tho - anyone can interrupt you and mess up your jump - so overall it's not that great

Originally Posted by DoubleGJ

golden jumps are super inconvenient in MP games because of the pace tho - anyone can interrupt you and mess up your jump - so overall it's not that great

That's why I said it's not the best substitute. I rarely golden jump in MP. Though using uppercut to reach higher areas in MP is however not often needed or impractical (because it slows you down and many RF climb spots are not uppercut friendly).

You'd need Lori to pass some of the levels hosted at the Puke Nuk3m Tests server. I guess that's kind of it.