I agree with gry

The Plus staff really appreciates enthusiasm and positive feedback from all of you, especially since many of you don't visit the forum often so it appears that you came here just to share it. It's good to hear you like the direction the patch is going in because there was a time some of us were unsure if we're choosing the right development path but now that so many of you posted here, we're convinced we're doing the right thing!

Regarding cstop, we had many discussions about it and our conclusion (that we thought you knew about but you must've forgotten) is that it's best to keep it the independent project it currently is. We think this solution has many advantages on both sides: our team is not convinced its customizability is a feature that's worth implementation in the patch and at the same time keeping it an external project of a person more associated with the jjnet community than any of the JJ2+ staff members will ensure that it's up to date with all of the competitive community's needs that our patch often can't keep up with.

It's nice to hear you're excited about other features the next release will bring though, even if you have completely no idea what most of them are. That just demonstrates the great trust you have in us and we hope not to let you down.

we should probably post a screenshot again someday
hmmm

Originally Posted by Sir Ementaler

We think this solution has many advantages on both sides: our team is not convinced its customizability is a feature that's worth implementation in the patch and at the same time keeping it an external project of a person more associated with the jjnet community than any of the JJ2+ staff members will ensure that it's up to date with all of the competitive community's needs that our patch often can't keep up with.

This is a really long sentence!

Anyway, is it really that difficult to make cstop read the amount of seconds it counts down from an ini setting rather than from a hard-coded constant? Seems trivial to me to patch in and while it doesn't address everything that user patch offers it'd make a lot of people happy, I gather.

I mean, the code is literally "countdownStartPos = 5;". Seems feasible to me to make that a user setting instead.

The difficulty of the implementation is not the question.

Private messages in chat would also be trivial and would make a lot of people happy, but will not happen.

But why not? People have asked for a way to change the countdown time for cstop. It seems trivial to implement. I don't really see any downsides to having the option available. What's the problem here?

1. Making the countdown customizable is in the same "shit compromise" tier as /maxspecresolution or whatever was suggested before 4.2 came out with free mouse spectating. JJ2+ has enough shit compromises as it stands.

2. The few above posters don't even care for customizability as they care for the time to equal 3. In which case, it is a pointless request since nobody would ever set it to 1 or 15 or something, if it were customizable.

3. Then you may ask, why not just set it to 3, period? SE (currently the main coder) has a good reason:

People who want 3 seconds do so because they want to be able to dedicate themselves to another task more quickly. Which is bullshit. There's no task that you can wait 3 seconds for (+ time it takes to type the command) but can't wait 5 seconds. If you encounter a real emergency during a ladder match, as long as you're not an addict, you won't even type a command.

Originally Posted by cooba

1. Making the countdown customizable is in the same "shit compromise" tier as /maxspecresolution or whatever was suggested before 4.2 came out with free mouse spectating. JJ2+ has enough shit compromises as it stands.

What is the point you're trying to make with "compromises"? I thought JJ2+ as a patch is meant to suit the community which is using it, and so any ideas submitted by it should be considered and treated objectively. There are no "compromises" to make; if the patch is intended for us to use, then good ideas we suggest and require should be implemented, no?

Originally Posted by cooba

2. The few above posters don't even care for customizability as they care for the time to equal 3. In which case, it is a pointless request since nobody would ever set it to 1 or 15 or something, if it were customizable.

How do you know that? While I'm sure three seconds would be the optimal countdown time (the laddering community seems to think so, at least), how can you be so sure people wouldn't be experimenting with other cooldown times? It's like saying /maxscore should only have preset settings of 10, 15 and 20, because "nobody would ever set it to anything else".

Originally Posted by cooba

3. Then you may ask, why not just set it to 3, period? SE (currently the main coder) has a good reason:

Like I said, you cannot be sure three seconds would be the only used setting. Again, you're assuming stuff: "real emergencies", "addicts", blah blah blah. Waiting ten seconds for a game to pause and resume is bullshit, not what you mentioned above.

Personally i use cstart a lot for playing in camel duels.
İ never had a problem with 5 second countdown but if it were 3 seconds it wouldnt be respected by people who play duels because it would cause them to lack preparedness.
İf it were 10 seconds, İ would consider that official for a clanwar, but İ cant afford to spend that much time waiting, if İm just looking for a not serious match.

İn the past it was customary to get ready before the countdown started. So that way, you can apply your own timing to the start of the game, without requiring more keystrokes to alter the countdown timer. İts just easier to do it mentally than manually for counting time.

It seems very strange to me that just because people will choose either 3 or 5 seconds and not use the full spectrum of possibilities offered by a customization option, you chose not to implement the option at all. As I said before, it seems a rather trivial task to implement this, so it wouldn't be a waste of time - and neither would it be a compromise, because you're implementing a feature people have almost literally been asking for - not much of a compromise about that I'd say.

Originally Posted by Violet CLM

we should probably post a screenshot again someday
hmmm

This one's pretty old, but I guess I don't know if you'd all have seen it.

Personally I appreciate the thoughts being posted here about /cstop, particularly Lithium's "JJ2+ as a patch is meant to suit the community which is using it." It's really something of a two-way street, but we are certainly trying to help here, and if doing something this minor could make a big difference in how people perceive JJ2+, then that's a good argument in its favor. In an ideal world, after all, the installbase only gets bigger over time...

In an ideal world, Epic give us the source code and begin selling first-hand copies digitally with Plus pre-installed(Also, thumb screws are the dominant screws, and DC continuity is possible to keep up with).

Anyway, feature suggestion: Even out the amount of ammo stomping/kicking Powerups gives you(Not sure if this has been suggested before).

Originally Posted by Violet CLM

Personally I appreciate the thoughts being posted here about /cstop, particularly Lithium's "JJ2+ as a patch is meant to suit the community which is using it." It's really something of a two-way street, but we are certainly trying to help here, and if doing something this minor could make a big difference in how people perceive JJ2+, then that's a good argument in its favor. In an ideal world, after all, the installbase only gets bigger over time...

Thank you! I'm sure most of the community, not just me, would appreciate it if you decided to add the feature, no matter how minor it might be to you.

Originally Posted by Lithium

I thought JJ2+ as a patch is meant to suit the community which is using it, and so any ideas submitted by it should be considered and treated objectively.

This is funny, since if anybody were to say that about the Zeal servers on jjnet in 2012, they'd hear "the community doesn't own the servers!" from every Zeal admin possible.

And yet the Zeal servers are completely irrelevant and a separate issue entirely. JJ2+ is far more of a collaborative project and only logically should take more community input as to how different aspects of it should be tweaked. Please don't bring up irrelevant topics to try to lend credence to your position.

Question: would there be any desire for an altered (or customizable) /cstop if /start and /stop weren't unhelpfully banned on Camel servers? If so, what would be the proposed use case/s?

Maybe /CSTART and automatically set max players to the number of currently active players?

For example...

if DM were to ladder GPW, that would be useful for playing 3v3 only, which in Camel duels requires a maxplayers of 8 to prevent interruptions during officially registered games. Setting maxplayers above 8 allows joiners to enter the server, spectate off and defy the purpose of playing competitive ladder rather than playing casual duels. In 2v2 ladders it's necessitated to have only 6 players in Camel duels - 2 on both teams, 1 for the host CPU and 1 for camel duel's backup CPU.

Originally Posted by Sean

And yet the Zeal servers are completely irrelevant and a separate issue entirely.

Hmm, no. Both were/are personal projects that the community had/has a priviledge to use, not a right.

We always take input. Doesn't mean we always agree with it.

And in the meanwhile, you can always say /stop three seconds after /cstop.

Originally Posted by cooba

Hmm, no. Both were/are personal projects that the community had/has a priviledge to use, not a right.

We always take input. Doesn't mean we always agree with it.

But that doesn't mean it makes sense to disagree with input for what seems to be arbitrary reasons. Sure, the JJ2+ developers can implement whatever they want. But if the stated goal of JJ2+ is to improve players' JJ2 experience, and multiple players indicate that this in particular is a feature that would help in doing that, and the feature is easy to implement with no negative side-effects... I don't really understand what the problem is with listening to these players.

Originally Posted by Violet CLM

Question: would there be any desire for an altered (or customizable) /cstop if /start and /stop weren't unhelpfully banned on Camel servers? If so, what would be the proposed use case/s?

No, not with the current implementation of /stop. /cstart is not really an issue, even though it could be made customizable as well for symmetry or something. It is obvious why people would want to use a countdown in the first place. After all, before JJ2+ (and the patches that preceded it) we used to do it manually.

The reason we requested /cstop in the first place was that a lot of conflicts occured when people would /stop games without a warning. Sometimes it even went as far as purposeful abuse, players writing /stop when an opponent was above a pit or simply in order to annoy the other team.

For the life of me, I cannot see any objective reason why not to implement /cstop. /Smhealth and /maxplayers seem to be just as trivial settings and customization is in and of itself a virtue, especially when it is very clear that one group of people has a clear personal preference for three seconds and one for five seconds.

Perhaps you will be able to conjure up some kind of argument as to why a customizable /cstop would be inconsistent with the other JJ2+ functionality or the vision behind the project, but what has been communicated so far certainly has not been very convincing.

The reason why no one has been constantly bugging you about /cstop until now is because it remained in the list of future features. We, but perhaps I can only speak for myself here, think it is quite legitimate that you guys spend your time pursuing the ideas that interest you personally (up until the last release Angelscript and singleplayer improvements seemed to be the main interest, next to Jerry's 3D efforts), as long as you keep the door open. "Sorry, no one has the time or will to do it right now, but perhaps it may definitely happen some time in the future."

Unfortunately, you have one person on the active team who has, admittedly for quite hilarious reasons, made this issue personal. This is the second time already that (s)he has tried to shut down any plans of implementing this much sought for feature request.

Be that as it may, I can understand why you guys would not want to make that person angry with you, seeing as he or she is a very active member of the JJ2+ development team and since (s)he would without a doubt remain angry at all of you for years. It would certainly reflect very badly on the rest of you if you would let his/her... mild obsession with this issue stemming from personal conflicts stop you from making such a minor and simple alteration to the patch compared to the things you are currently working on, but whatever, perhaps it is worth it.

Luckily, there is another possible solution that is a lot harder to argue with that zepect proposed to me recently: make /stop freeze everything completely so that there can be no issue of people falling into an unfavourable position. In that way, you can keep that one person happy - let's give him/her the benefit of the doubt and assume that (s)he would not complain about a perfected /stop implementation as well - all the while solving the real problem, which we have directly and indirectly been pointing to: people falling into unfavourable positions when the game is stopped.

Originally Posted by Grytolle

Luckily, there is another possible solution that is a lot harder to argue with that zepect proposed to me recently: make /stop freeze everything completely so that there can be no issue of people falling into an unfavourable position.

I'd like to mention "recently" in this sentence means 4 months ago which is when zepect initially discussed this idea with you and the rest of Camel Staff. Which was the event that convinced me that it is widely known by now that this feature will be implemented but apparently that's another thing you forgot.

/stop freezing time is a good idea, I agree. In fact I agreed with this a while ago.

[2013-11-04 19:57:29] coobae: terrible idea for /stop: set gravity to 0 if nomovement is on
[2013-11-04 19:58:41] dashwave: nomovement would do that
[2013-11-04 19:58:51] zepect: no
[2013-11-04 19:59:05] zepect: for example if you jump over a pit and /stop with nomovement, you'll fall and die
[2013-11-04 19:59:13] dashwave: use SE's braid library to freeze time

In that sentence, it means a day or two ago. And you must have forgotten it yourself too, SE, otherwise you would no doubt have thought of mentioning it when trying so hard to construct arguments why not to implement a customizable /cstop. Furthermore, there was no reference to that feature renduring it obsolete when closing the issue.

Nevertheless, glad to see everyone agree (so far)

Originally Posted by Grytolle

And you must have forgotten it yourself too, SE, otherwise you would no doubt have thought of mentioning it when trying so hard to construct arguments why not to implement a customizable /cstop.

As I said, I was convinced you're aware of it and for whatever reason want cstop implementation regardless, especially since over half of people supporting you were present during the conversation as well, therefore I had to choose my arguments accordingly. Additionally, the concept of freezing the game is independent of cstop and I don't recall us thinking of it as a substitute, it's more of a general fix that everybody in the team knew will have to happen sooner or later. I didn't see much of a link between the two, I didn't know if one solves the other for you, and since it appeared to me that it doesn't, I didn't bring it up. The topic of using cstop in order to avoid people falling down wasn't even touched before your latest post. The protest both here and on Skype took the form of shouting "we want customizable cstop!" and not "what we want is a more convenient way to stop the game and prevent players from falling down", where the former sentence was found by us to be unreasonable while the latter would give you an immediate answer: "we're on it".

Alright, so in other words you operated under the faulty assumption that we remembered the plans for /stop and we were wrong to assume that you guys knew why /cstop was created in the first place or that it was such an obvious thing to figure out. Coming to think it, it is quite possible that none of you were active at the time, so I have no doubt that this was an honest mistake your part just as it was on ours.

That said, there are still no downsides at all to making /cstop and /cstart customizable, except that someone with the ability has to take the time to do it. Even if there isn't a big problem anymore if the gameplay situation isn't affected by stops, people will still appreciate having a second or two's notice and the ability to test out what is the optimal /cstop time for their purposes. I can respect that none of the developers that have posted here personally have any interest in doing it, but saying 1) that it's a bad idea and 2) that it mustn't ever be done doesn't make sense at all, since the people who prefer it as it is can simply stick to the default setting.

Edit: Creating a simple way of triggering a function with X ms delay would probably be very useful for Angelscript as well

Wow, there's a lot in that screenshot. But, I'm sure everyone can agree on the main thing to take away from this shot -- Cooba's gun sprite is messed up.

Anyway, so that stop had a countdown, the stop paused everyone's movements, and -- truly the most important thing in this shot -- Violet is better at battle than Cooba.

(Now leaving sarcasm) Anyway, looking good so far! I must admit, I did always think that stopping a battle would work the best if it also stopped falling. Not sure why I didn't mention it before. XD

Originally Posted by Robo4900

Wow, there's a lot in that screenshot. But, I'm sure everyone can agree on the main thing to take away from this shot -- Cooba's gun sprite is messed up.

it's not messed up, it has the same palette entries as his actual gun

Did not notice that.
(I forgot you could do weird stuff to your colours with registry editing/external programs)

Originally Posted by Robo4900

truly the most important thing in this shot -- Violet is better at battle than Cooba.

cooba discovered weapon 0 by accident and we were trying to figure out how to reproduce it and killing him a lot seemed the likeliest solution YES YOU ARE CORRECT THANK YOU FOR NOTICING MY PROWESS

We're not supposed to say anything about weapon 0. Especially not about how to get it by roasting cooba

I got a problem.

Non-terminated string literal
I terminated the string literal. Just take a look closely at 16, 70. Where I made that little line.

1. You didn't really have to post a screenshot, code would be enough. But since you already did and apparently use Notepad++ yet edit scripts in plain text mode, I think it's fair for me to advertise AngelScript syntax highlighting patch.
2. Your error is at the end of line 13. As the error message says, the string is not terminated. It's really not that hard to notice especially in your 18-line-long script but would be even easier if you used the aforementioned Notepad++ patch.

How can I make a Tuf Boss become an enemy?

Originally Posted by XxMoNsTeRXM

How can I make a Tuf Boss become an enemy?

If you want to get help about angelscript stuff then you're better off going to this thread:

http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showt...370#post482370

It also answers your question.

Bug discovered: I accidentally rolled the mouse wheel in the menus and the game crashed. I noticed that whenever I rolled the mouse wheel up in any of the menus I would get an AV, and rolling it down would make the game freeze permanently instead.

Yes, a fix has already been implemented in the next update.

3 problems that I experience while using JJ2+ (I'm using 1.24 version)

1. Why music has to be in the JJ2 folder in order to be loaded into the game? I get "music does not exist" each time I try to load music from my music folder or any other, even from the directory which itself (that directory) is located in JJ2 folder...
   
2. I don't know why but a LOT of times the music turns off and the volume sets to minimum in JJ2 sound options... Especially when I run a lvl from JCS.
   
3. The cheat jjfly VERY OFTEN does not work. I type it several times and nothing. SOmetimes after 10th time it will work, while ALL the other cheats work perfectly after the first type. That's pretty annoying, especially if u play those "underground" levels where u tend to stuck a lot, and jjfly + jjnowall is the only way out...

Originally Posted by incandescentembers

I don't know why but a LOT of times the music turns off and the volume sets to minimum in JJ2 sound options... Especially when I run a lvl from JCS.

That's happened to me since I first got the game, back when it was still new. I always meant to suggest this as a Plus bugfix, but I always forget. XD

So, I downloaded this again and ran it, and it's telling me it's outdated when I log into a server.

Solution?