The flagbug is (-) annoying. It doesn't allow you to chat normally, which is very important in teamgames.

Grytolle meant the bug where a player retains the flag when he dies on the enemy base, not the message flood bug.

Both are annoying and I don't see how can they be at all useful

The flag bug is usful for making instant death pits

Originally Posted by SonicNathan 1

Also the patch to change 1.23 to 1.24 was never released and it's illegal to download it.

-_-

While bringing up some nice points about the no-warez status of this site, I still must say that I find your attitude rather disgusting. If you had ever played JJ2 online for real, you would know what a blessing real bug fixes are, like the fix for death on flag or team chat sending to the correct teams. You think it's self written that everyone should play 1.24 while what I said before truly applies; there is nothing better with 1.24's Internet play, and regarding single player (which I admittedly don't give a (-) about); it only has one episode.

Also, since all programs are written for 1.23, since that's what most people play when playing seriously, I see no reason why I change to 1.24 would be a particularly good idea. (Yeah, I don't care that you for some weird reason don't like positive progress)

About the list server: shutting people out is just stupid. If you want to be able to play with players of all version, just use the Multi-version hack.

You may not like my attitude but it's frustrating to hear the same "legality" and "morality" arguments over and over again. And what does this topic have anything to do with bug fixes? When did I say I didn't want bug fixes? My point is that everyone should be using the same version. It doesn't even matter what version it is. The reason I mentioned 1.24 is because it is common sense for people to upgrade instead of downgrade. It does not matter if the changes are insignificant. I also doubt it would be very hard to make the same programs for 1.24 that 1.23 has. But even so, it wouldn't matter if the standard version was 1.23. Nobody would be shut out because I've already explained why it's so easy to change versions.

Originally Posted by kangaroo

-_-




You may not like my attitude but it's frustrating to hear the same "legality" and "morality" arguments over and over again. And what does this topic have anything to do with bug fixes? When did I say I didn't want bug fixes? My point is that everyone should be using the same version. It doesn't even matter what version it is. The reason I mentioned 1.24 is because it is common sense for people to upgrade instead of downgrade. It does not matter if the changes are insignificant. I also doubt it would be very hard to make the same programs for 1.24 that 1.23 has. But even so, it wouldn't matter if the standard version was 1.23. Nobody would be shut out because I've already explained why it's so easy to change versions.

TSF IS HARD TO FIND!!! IT"S ILLEGAL TO DOWNLOAD IT OR TO MAKE A PATCH TO CHANGE 1.23 TO 1.24! AND WE DON"T CARE! WERE NOT GOING TO UPGRADE JUST BECUASE YOU SAY SO! IN MY OPINION TSF IS HARDLY A UPGRADE! IT HAS NO NEW ONLINE CAPABILITY'S AND THE GAMEPLAY IS THE SAME ONLY YOU GET 1 NEW STUPID BORING EPISODE AND A CHARACTER THAT NOBODY PLAYS!!! I DON"T WANT THE SPLIT! EVERYBODY JUST PLAY WITH THE VERSION THAT WE GOT! JUST BECAUSE EVERYBODY DOESN"T HAVE THE SAME VERSION DOESN"T MEAN THAT THAT DOESN"T MAKE US A COMMUNITY! IT A COMMUNITY ABOUT JAZZ! NOT ABOUT WHAT VERSION WE HAVE AND WELL PLAY WHATEVER VERSION WE HAVE!

So, um, the thing is, I'm not sure people do think of JJ2 as one unified community. The reason we have people who only play 1.23, and people who only play 1.24, is that these are decidedly different groups of people. We don't speak the same language. We're online at different times, and play different kinds of games, and put importance on different things. J2O is not a site for the TSF people, much as we might pretend it's for all JJ2. Does that need to be merged into one version?

kangaroo, when you said jj2 shouldn't be modified and that jj2 should be jj2 or something else equally amusingly stupid

Originally Posted by kangaroo

-_-




You may not like my attitude but it's frustrating to hear the same "legality" and "morality" arguments over and over again. And what does this topic have anything to do with bug fixes? When did I say I didn't want bug fixes? My point is that everyone should be using the same version. It doesn't even matter what version it is. The reason I mentioned 1.24 is because it is common sense for people to upgrade instead of downgrade. It does not matter if the changes are insignificant. I also doubt it would be very hard to make the same programs for 1.24 that 1.23 has. But even so, it wouldn't matter if the standard version was 1.23. Nobody would be shut out because I've already explained why it's so easy to change versions.

Whatever you may say, the administrators of this site choose not to allow warez mainly because their host doesn't allow it, and because they own this site, what they say goes. End of story.

Originally Posted by kangaroo

My point is that everyone should be using the same version.

I'm afraid this point is doomed to fail

Originally Posted by cooba

I'm afraid this point is doomed to fail

What do you think I've been telling him? Lol

The reason we have people who only play 1.23, and people who only play 1.24, is that these are decidedly different groups of people. We don't speak the same language. We're online at different times, and play different kinds of games, and put importance on different things.

There's nothing we can do about different languages and time-zones, but we can fix the differences in versions. I'm sure there are plenty of english-speakers who play 1.24, and many of them probably enjoy the same game types as those played in 1.23. The idea is to help increase interaction between the two sides as well as throughout the community. Otherwise, the only thing players have in common is the fact that they all use the same servers. I see many people interested in getting xfire support for jazz. But jazz has a small community as it is, and it certainly doesn't help if everyone appears not to be playing the same game. Why would xfire want to support an old game that has a loose community and whose players don't seem to have common interests?

Whatever you may say, the administrators of this site choose not to allow warez mainly because their host doesn't allow it, and because they own this site, what they say goes. End of story.

You can't honestly tell me that you think the host would even know that links to an old, unheard of game not being sold anywhere is considered "warez". When Dizzy hosted the game for his friend on the site or something like that, it didn't exactly show he believes there's any kind of a risk. And honestly, if Epic doesn't care about and won't support the game anymore, then why shouldn't they turn it over to the community? If they were ever to make/finish a sequel, it would only benefit them if more people had access to jj2.

I'm afraid this point is doomed to fail

Maybe it will fail, but you know what else will?. The machinima idea will fail. Even someone who happens to see it won't want to bother checking out a kid's game that's a bit more advanced than a super nintendo game. Also, Epic will NEVER hand over the source code to jazz, so anybody who still hopes to make a patch should just admit that they will fail. Trying to get xfire support for jazz is "doomed to fail", because they would never support a 2D sprite game that once ran on DOS. Or maybe you should try to avoid these threads altogether if you have nothing to discuss. Last time I checked, nobody was forcing you to read anything.

Originally Posted by kangaroo

You can't honestly tell me that you think the host would even know that links to an old, unheard of game not being sold anywhere is considered "warez". When Dizzy hosted the game for his friend on the site or something like that, it didn't exactly show he believes there's any kind of a risk.

I think you missed the "end of story" part

And honestly, if Epic doesn't care about and won't support the game anymore, then why shouldn't they turn it over to the community? If they were ever to make/finish a sequel, it would only benefit them if more people had access to jj2.

You'd have to talk to Epic about that, not us :P

Anyway, to get back to the point a bit, what benefit do you exactly see in "merging" the two versions? What good would it bring?

And honestly, if Epic doesn't care about and won't support the game anymore, then why shouldn't they turn it over to the community? If they were ever to make/finish a sequel, it would only benefit them if more people had access to jj2.

I don't think anyone would argue that point. But like Stijn said, that's not up to us.

Also, Epic will NEVER hand over the source code to jazz, so anybody who still hopes to make a patch should just admit that they will fail.

The general feeling I get from this thread is that you shouldn't be telling us to stop fighting a losing battle.

Originally Posted by kangaroo

You can't honestly tell me that you think the host would even know that links to an old, unheard of game not being sold anywhere is considered "warez". When Dizzy hosted the game for his friend on the site or something like that, it didn't exactly show he believes there's any kind of a risk. And honestly, if Epic doesn't care about and won't support the game anymore, then why shouldn't they turn it over to the community? If they were ever to make/finish a sequel, it would only benefit them if more people had access to jj2.

If you feel so strongly about this, why don't you just set up your own site and put whatever version you want to force everyone to play there?

Why demand this to the J2O admins? If you want to capitalize on J2O popularity, don't worry, I'm sure your site's google rank would climb in a few months.

Of course, this would have little effect. The split is not just about the availability of TSF (the other direction is less problematic, TSF comes with 1.23 -- at least mine came), there's a "cultural" issue, like has been said in this thread.

Dearest Kangaroo;

Originally Posted by kangaroo

There's nothing we can do about different languages and time-zones, but we can fix the differences in versions. I'm sure there are plenty of english-speakers who play 1.24, and many of them probably enjoy the same game types as those played in 1.23. The idea is to help increase interaction between the two sides as well as throughout the community. Otherwise, the only thing players have in common is the fact that they all use the same servers. I see many people interested in getting xfire support for jazz. But jazz has a small community as it is, and it certainly doesn't help if everyone appears not to be playing the same game. Why would xfire want to support an old game that has a loose community and whose players don't seem to have common interests?

Why do you think the community is loose? Before you start labelling us with words, perhaps you should consider that we all are different kinds of people. Just as you have proven to be ignorant about your argument, people have different personalities and life styles that sometimes just doesn't mix well together. It's our choice to split the community this way because we like it that way, not because it's a bad thing.

The whole idea behind your points is to create a better game for people to play but now these people are saying to you they don't like your solution, then why on earth would you bother? You will never be able to enforce people to patch their games and therefore your sole opinion, despiting how well formulated it may be, simply don't matter jack. This is what a community is.

Originally Posted by kangaroo

You can't honestly tell me that you think the host would even know that links to an old, unheard of game not being sold anywhere is considered "warez". When Dizzy hosted the game for his friend on the site or something like that, it didn't exactly show he believes there's any kind of a risk. And honestly, if Epic doesn't care about and won't support the game anymore, then why shouldn't they turn it over to the community? If they were ever to make/finish a sequel, it would only benefit them if more people had access to jj2.

I think it's funny how people sometimes make demands about the site without ever having contributed to the actual works of it. Before you go ahead and make suggestion that could affect the site's hosting, tell me where has your donations been at the last couple of years?

Bob nor Frank or any other staff members won't be heeding your suggestion simply because it's so much work to put at risk just for to clear up what a google search or two could grant you.

There are rules that we have to follow and we didn't set them. Epic's stance in this is in many ways ignorant, yet we have people in this community who still is working on archiving the source code despiting their busy lives. Patience is a virtue because all this ever will be is a rabbit game and it's not a very important part of your life.

Originally Posted by kangaroo

Maybe it will fail, but you know what else will?. The machinima idea will fail. Even someone who happens to see it won't want to bother checking out a kid's game that's a bit more advanced than a super nintendo game. Also, Epic will NEVER hand over the source code to jazz, so anybody who still hopes to make a patch should just admit that they will fail. Trying to get xfire support for jazz is "doomed to fail", because they would never support a 2D sprite game that once ran on DOS. Or maybe you should try to avoid these threads altogether if you have nothing to discuss. Last time I checked, nobody was forcing you to read anything.

Last time I checked, there were people supporting those ideas but I don't really see anyone supporting yours. So I'm guessing that despiting your "EPIC WILL NEVER GIVE YOU THE SOURCE CODE" and "XFIRE SUPPORT? LOL", the chances of those goals succeeding is greater than yours. So maybe you should just lay off your high hat and realize all of these goals can only be archieved as a community and as long as you play high commander you're not going getting any support to get there. People aren't going to support you because you argue with them, you see.

Best regards,
Moonblaze.

Also, Epic will NEVER hand over the source code to jazz, so anybody who still hopes to make a patch should just admit that they will fail.

I lol'd when reading this. You really have no clue, do you? I would post a list of all available improvements that have been accomplished without using the source-code, but I'm way too lazy

To clear up any potential confusion, when Moonblaze says "despising" above he means "despite."

Originally Posted by Unknown Rabbit

To clear up any potential confusion, when Moonblaze says "despising" above he means "despite."

Thanks mate, I appreciate it.

I think the Maciniama will work because lots of people have taken an interest it. It's just like the 1.25 patch. If we got enough people together we could make it without the source code. But because knowbody cares to make it without the code that's why it hasn't been made with. If I saw a maciniama for Jazz 2 I'd take a look at the game. Ev en if it's the demo. Man. Next thing we know hes going to say that this is going to fail. (All Jazzers. Sign up for this form. These guys are making Jazz 3!!!!!!! No joke! You should see the progress they have made!)

http://www.ambesoftware.com/Forum

I dont see any problem. The TSF ppl you talk about wont even google JJ2 to find this site or wutever. They dont care..... I think.

Also if 1.23 and TSF will combine nothing will happend... the communitys are diffrent.

Originally Posted by Grytolle

That wouldn't be impossible. We could even force a patch upgrade on them using hax. It's just a tad unethical, that's all.

BUT THATS NOT EPIC!....oh wait....

There could be some sort of converter running on the PC's with listservers. It would make tsf servers seem to be 1.23 servers to people running 1.23, and the reverse too. It could also convert the sprite numbers so this would be transparent and there would be no way of knowing that the server is another version.

nice, but then they still wouldn't be able to actually join the servers

I find it interesting how such a huge number of words is spent trying to get *other* people (who invest money and time into a site) to break the lawfor the benefit of others. (sharing a full game is a sliiiightly worse offense than hosting patching material) It's also interesting how it's cast as an issue of taking the moral high ground while people who state they have moral problems with such an idea are talked down.

Look to your own and stop wasting your time on this issue, please. It would be much more helpful to plan some other strategies (besides "J2O break the law!!!") how to increase JJ2 adoption or tools to make JJ2 more compatible between versions.

Originally Posted by Grytolle

nice, but then they still wouldn't be able to actually join the servers

why?

Originally Posted by FreeFull

There could be some sort of converter running on the PC's with listservers. It would make tsf servers seem to be 1.23 servers to people running 1.23, and the reverse too. It could also convert the sprite numbers so this would be transparent and there would be no way of knowing that the server is another version.

Jazz2 gets the server version from the server itself, not the list server. Therefore, you'd have to patch the server -- something like "if the client says it is 1.23 (I'm not sure right now, but I think the client does send this information), reply this server is also 1.23".

Anyway, there would still be other obstacles, but maybe a solution to them can implemented in the dedicated server project.

Originally Posted by FreeFull

why?

Because the levels and tilesets are different.

Also I think FreeFull is talking about a client side program.

Originally Posted by Birdie

Because the levels and tilesets are different.

Well, you could nevertheless run a multi-version server if you used 1.23 levels and tilesets.

But no, there's no magic way to suddenly make everything compatible, if that is what FreeFull meant.

Sorry, when I posted the last idea I didn't think. Yea, it would have to be a client-side program. It could convert the tilesets and levels to 1.23 format on-the-fly (it that's possible) after they were downloaded from the server (I know it would need a modification of jazz2.exe). It would also convert the animations so that the player won't know its a tsf server (lori could use spaz animations). It would be possible to instead of changing jazz2.exe you could use the program as a launcher (like JazzTool) and it would create a local network server (not using jazz2.exe) and jazz2.exe would be ran with getting on that server with command-line parameters while the program would receive all data from the server on the internet and send it to jazz2.exe via the network server.

Such a merge would be a brilliant idea, however, it should not be compulsory. It would be great as a de facto standard, but people should still have a choice.

Not all TSF-only players are noobs (no offence n00b) who don't speak english. The community is slowly dying as it is, and it doesn't help to have a split.

If TSF players who only play hotels and tests saw decent servers come online, they would soon get an appetite for decent levels, and hotel server numbers would drop dramatically. We would gain some decent new players, some of which speak really good english.

At the end of the day, what would be bad? TSF is easy to find online, though sadly I can't say where. Also, to counter the annoyance of massive levels, I think that levels should all be made for 1.23. The 1.23 level and tileset size limits are adequate, and would allow those who choose not to make the switch to continue playing custom levels seamlessly. TSF readily accepts 1.23 levels and tilesets. Pretty much all server tools support TSF (though few accept the 'LK Avalon' release, which differs from standard TSF only in the jazz2.exe and the anims.j2a).

And what is this argument that all the good players play 1.23. That wouldn't matter if everyone switched. At the moment I mainly play 1.23, but I still think it would be a good idea to use 1.24.

agreed. It would help. Somebody should make an english-polish translation mod for 1.24

Why is this still open? *cry*

Phoenix: No, but the majority seem to be. Besides, I'm positive they enjoy hanging around with each other.