I'm just gonna throw into the discussion that non-pu bnc is quite effective for hunting people down: it's fast and has a long reach, it can go through thin walls and it has a good chance of hitting people even when they run down-hill

The point I was trying to elaborate more was Grytolle's, @Sean!

Yeah I'm aware powered bouncers are good for certain areas in Semi and possibly BBlair or battle1, but other than that, they either break levels or are a real dominant superpower, possibly equal to seekers. Most people in CTF levels counterbalance a bouncer pu on one side of the level with a toaster pu, some with an RF pu; given the right layout I might even consider a seeker PU. (just wanted to throw that in there)

Meanwhile, non-powered bouncers remain bleeding strong (like seekers) for different situations too. Certain areas can be pretty much blockaded by the correct use of bouncers, while powered-bouncers don't really boast this advantage, but instead a much stronger height advantage!

Personally I think the main point of non-powered bouncers is to be used as a defense, as its physics are terrible for offense. A good strategy would be to hit them with the non-powered bouncers then follow up with a powered weapon to kill.

Also, if a level featured peppermints and RFs, people would probably not use the peppermints, and use the RFs (since they can be used for impact shots and RF jumping/hopping). People are also more used to pressing 5 for when they're chasing to spam RF. Anyone think a level without RF could work, and peppermint instead?

Would mean pressing 8, having your chasing gun be affected by fastfire, and no little jumpy tricks from RFs, not to mention they're harder to see...

pepper spray hits never seem to register for me...

Sean: I thought we explained in detail how non-PU bnc could be useful for hunting o.O

Personally I use non-powered BNC in AYB, they're really effective for the layout. =p

Guys, I'm happy to see you're having a discussion, but even though the thread in in General Jazz Talk and the title "Gameplay Theories" is rather apt, this is largely a level design thread.

Reviving this topic.

A popular opinion goes that the Seeker PU is an obscenely strong weapon in MP. Whilst I agree with that statement - recently, I've been coming to think that the power of the Toaster PU has been overlooked, especially in Battle. It is usually placed where it is quite easy to obtain, and ammo for it generally occurs in abundance. For what it lacks in range, it sure-as-hell makes up for with an incredible spread and low ammo consumption. Even in a heavily populated server, a good player is unlikely to ever run out of Toaster ammo if they get 50 from the PU until they die. Most level designs allow players to easily charge through and "go Rambo" on a whole group of players with virtual impunity.

I don't think the Toaster PU should go unused entirely, but I would suggest that JCSers reconsider the amount of ammunition they're providing Toaster users.

The thing about toaster is that it's one of the few weapons with which you can have a reasonable hope of hitting someone who has the high ground, because of the amount of "bullets" it shoots. You need to button-bash a lot harder with other weapons. I also like that it's a rather short range weapon, so the kills you get with it are more often due to good prediction than random bullets that hit.

On the other hand, there's no reason why you'd need to have a toaster power-up per se, seeing as non-powered-up toaster can server the same function just fine. I'd strongly advice all level makers not to use seeker power-ups, unless their level has a really quirky lay-out, to somewhat reduce the importance of the air factor.

(If you think timing-reliant levels are fun, you could even consider making a rather small map with no power-ups at all, but much ammo.)

What about Electroblasters? The ability to shoot through walls could probably be pretty useful, especially on close-quarters levels with a lot of parallel passages...?

Plus, it helps that the EB goes faster and farther (if I'm not mistaken) when fired on the run.

Originally Posted by PT32

What about Electroblasters? The ability to shoot through walls could probably be pretty useful, especially on close-quarters levels with a lot of parallel passages...?

Yes, they provide a nice tactical element, but they're not really useful uphill.

Originally Posted by PT32

Plus, it helps that the EB goes faster and farther (if I'm not mistaken) when fired on the run.

Yes, as does all other ammunition in JJ2 I almost never shoot standing still

Sorry for reviving the thread, but I want to know what you guys think of underwater battle/CTF levels, and is it possible to make one that actually has good gameplay and event placement?

CTF would be pretty difficult, but I could imagine a pretty cool Battle one. Would be a little slow, though.

What about the other water level mode, where you can move like in the non-water spots, but the jumping and falling physics are diffirent?

Low gravity water levels are still rather problematic since falling is initially very slow unless you buttstomp which makes you vulnerable, and exacerbates Spaz-bias tenfold because the advantage of having double jump becomes far greater.

Water can always be used as a visual addition. Low gravity water should be avoided, Purplejazz summed that up nicely.

Water as gameplay has a direct link to the goal of the level. To use water as a playable area, you should ask yourself why you want water in your level.

You can aim for a lot of combat in water for example. This is generally a big size pool with ammo inside it. The combat is generally a lot slower and slower paced and can only work well if the level doesn't take itself too seriously. It can be fun as a JDC event type of level, because the chaos can be hilarious.

As for a competitive level (1v1, 2v2, 3v3), I think it's better to only use small portions of water as a route. The movement drawback of swimming is too big of an annoyance to actually fight seriously in. Water can be used as route for rushing CTF scores or getting to a specific area with rewards (carrot, powerups). The water in this case is meant to make the player vulnerable, but not to take combat in.